Ordsall Chord

[Senex]

And, based on the geometric term, it's the standard railway term for a short line linking two existing lines - such as the Hazel Grove Chord, built in the 1980s, to give an example near Manchester.

When did it become a standard railway term? Not so long ago the usual term seems to have been Curve, but Chord certainly now seems dominant.

 

[HowardGWR]

The sheer cheek of the man. He has lost a Judical review and an appeal already

If he succeeds, then it will be because the Court decides that the SoS acted unlawfully. Everyone is expected to conform to the law. I have no axe to grind about the merits of the route and plans chosen for the Ordsall Chord, (I support them), but if the law has not been adhered to, and the Court upholds Whitby's appeal,


---- then believe me, we all benefit. It has nothing to do with railways.

 

[keith1879]

If he succeeds, then it will be because the Court decides that the SoS acted unlawfully. Everyone is expected to conform to the law. I have no axe to grind about the merits of the route and plans chosen for the Ordsall Chord, (I support them), but if the law has not been adhered to, and the Court upholds Whitby's appeal,


---- then believe me, we all benefit. It has nothing to do with railways.

I understand what you're saying but I suspect that Mr Whitby's appeal has nothing at all to do with such a high minded principle but is merely him taking the only available avenue to try and overturn the decision. His motivation seems to me to be roughly equivalent to the child who stamps his foot and cries because he isn't getting his own way.

If there was really a significant point of principle here (or in October) then surely more people would be openly raising it.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

When did it become a standard railway term? Not so long ago the usual term seems to have been Curve, but Chord certainly now seems dominant.

Some described that recent project as the Todmorden Chord.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

If he succeeds, then it will be because the Court decides that the SoS acted unlawfully. Everyone is expected to conform to the law. I have no axe to grind about the merits of the route and plans chosen for the Ordsall Chord, (I support them), but if the law has not been adhered to, and the Court upholds Whitby's appeal,


---- then believe me, we all benefit. It has nothing to do with railways.

If he succeeds...The fact that a Judical review and an appeal have already gone against him strongly indicates that all all the procedures have been adhered too. As I understand this latest case is an appeal against the decision by the Judge who heared his previous case not to grant him the right to appeal, so even if he wins this latest case he will then be allowed to appeal the previous decision to proceed with building the chord. If he loses then are all his legal avenues exhausted?

 

[dviner]

If he succeeds...The fact that a Judical review and an appeal have already gone against him strongly indicates that all all the procedures have been adhered too. As I understand this latest case is an appeal against the decision by the Judge who heared his previous case not to grant him the right to appeal, so even if he wins this latest case he will then be allowed to appeal the previous decision to proceed with building the chord. If he loses then are all his legal avenues exhausted?

OK. Let's say he wins. What happens? His appeals can't force his design to be built.

 

[deltic08]

That might be what you had in your head and tried to post, it's certainly not how it comes across on screen. Your post makes direct allegations of the Inquiry being suppressed when it was absolutely not suppressed, indeed the only way it could have been more open was if people were grabbed off the streets of Manchester and dragged kicking and screaming into the inquiry, though god alone knows, there's been enough kicking and screaming since.

I respect your posts more than any on this forum. I surrender.

You were all giving TBirdFrank such a hard time I wanted to support him as he had another viewpoint and didn't deserve the lashing he got just because he didn't agree. I have been on the receiving end of this just because I didn't agree with the majority and it is unpleasant and unnecessary. It is hunting in packs for a kill just like hyenas.

 

[D869]

I think in this context, Chord is referring to the Geometric term.

And, based on the geometric term, it's the standard railway term for a short line linking two existing lines - such as the Hazel Grove Chord, built in the 1980s, to give an example near Manchester.

I cannot tell you how much I hate the misuse of the word chord. In geometry a chord is a straight line, not a curve. If you think that "curve" is not the best description for a short length of railway then "link" is a good alternative, e.g. Windsor Link, not a million miles away from the Ordsall (formerly Castlefield) Curve.

When did it become a standard railway term? Not so long ago the usual term seems to have been Curve, but Chord certainly now seems dominant.

Not so long ago people used to talk and write in accurate and succinct English, free from jargon, management-speak and pretentious gobbledegook. Now we get "chords" and "interventions" ...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Not so long ago people used to talk and write in accurate and succinct English, free from jargon, management-speak and pretentious gobbledegook.

I am often accused on this website of being the user of English from previous centuries past with my oft-stated arcane terminology....

 

[Joseph_Locke]

When did it become a standard railway term? Not so long ago the usual term seems to have been Curve, but Chord certainly now seems dominant.

Not such recent coinage, I'm afraid. The following isn't a complete list, just the ones I can find reliable naming dates for:

• Haydock Chord (renamed before 1990)
• Madeley Chord (1962)
• Ince Moss Chord (before 1915)
• Grovesend Chord Line (1974)
• Ravensbourne Chord (2002)
• Tuxford Chord (1896)
• Croxley Green Chord (1912)
• Cowlairs Chord (1993)
• Oxley Chord (1983)
• Ruddington Chord (Loughborough) (1977)
• Bacon Factory Chord (2014)
• Chinley Chord (prob. 1894)

 

[Altfish]

Chord is a geometrical term (used by the engineers designing these things) to describe a straight line connecting two points on a circle. It has become 'ba*****ised' to mean a short line (not necessarily straight) connecting two railway lines.

 

[snowball]

Not so long ago people used to talk and write in accurate and succinct English, free from jargon, management-speak and pretentious gobbledegook. Now we get "chords" and "interventions" ...

I object to the description of "chord" as gobbledegook. As a term in school geometry I was taught it at age 11. The Oxford English Dictionary records its use in 1570. Etymologically it's the same word as "cord". The musical use comes from the same root, because of stringed instruments.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Not all Chord lines are curved ...

And if we're talking about meaning shifts, reconsider the current usage of "remit".

 

[glbotu]

As someone who works in an environment full of business-speak, neither the word "chord", nor "intervention", in any way suggest business speak. In fact, it's a pretty damned succinct way of describing this. What else would you call it, the Ordsall Victoria Piccadilly connecting railway bridge?

Also, I think we have possibly found our way into the most pointless and inane discussion in the history of these forums.

 

[quantinghome]

Also, I think we have possibly found our way into the most pointless and inane discussion in the history of these forums.

I agree; it's a minor issue. I would prefer to see major things discussed here. This subject should be diminished.

 

[chorleyjeff]

I am often accused on this website of being the user of English from previous centuries past with my oft-stated arcane terminology....

Accused?
Perhaps a bit wordy. "previous centuries past" and occasionally convoluted.
I prefer the old fashioned English of a Lord Denning legal decision ie short words in short sentences.

 

[Senex]

Not such recent coinage, I'm afraid. The following isn't a complete list, just the ones I can find reliable naming dates for:

• Haydock Chord (renamed before 1990)
• Madeley Chord (1962)
• Ince Moss Chord (before 1915)
• Grovesend Chord Line (1974)
• Ravensbourne Chord (2002)
• Tuxford Chord (1896)
• Croxley Green Chord (1912)
• Cowlairs Chord (1993)
• Oxley Chord (1983)
• Ruddington Chord (Loughborough) (1977)
• Bacon Factory Chord (2014)
• Chinley Chord (prob. 1894)

Should this be a new thread, or is the question of "Chord" enough to keep it with what is to be built - Whitby permitting - in Ordsall?

That's fascinating, not so much for the BR-date ones, which I would at least half expect but for the fact that you've got evidence for the earlier ones. I have counter-evidence for one of them. Midland Railway documents that I have refer to the Chinley Suth Curve, not the Chinley Chord. This is true both of a book of Parliamentary Extracts, which would have originated in the Legal/Estates Department and a book of Gradient Profiles, which would have come from the Engineer's Department. I also have a book of L&NW Gradient Tables which unfortunately does not incude the Ince Moss line but which refers to all other curve-lines as Curves. It seems as if the lack of certainty over terminology may go back quite a long way.

 

[duffield]

Re Bacon Factory Curve/Chord:

"Curve" appears to be the official designation - at least that's what NR seem to call it (and curve gets about 6 times as many hits as chord when googled as a quoted phrase).

 

[TBirdFrank]

Please - do not feel that anyone has to support me. Equally - when opposition is name calling and not intellectual then the proponents are of no interest to me anyay

I am confident in my own beliefs held from thirty years in the real railway industry - not the compliant think as I do, do as I say - but for God's sake don't do as I do kind of industry it is today.

I am mildly amused at being taken to task by planners - the profession that has done more to blight this country since 1947 than any other.

Tonight we hear that the S & C is closed because an entire hillside is sliding into the River Eden near Appleby - England - Scotland down to one and half routes for some four months - what more eloquent proof could there be that the railway needs diversionary routes, routes capable of strategic use and choice - not the hidebound going nowhere thinking so espouse by the members of the RNIB who seem to populate the industry, government and politics today.

A suggestion that better links three cities across the north is luddite - really?
A suggestion that puts the stadia on a Picc Vic link - of no benefit - really?
A suggestion that ten extra platforms at Piccadilly is of no benefit - really?
Sixteen terminal and eight through platforms - of no benefit - really?
Airspace development over a re-activated Mayfield - of no benefit - really?
North east to north west journeys via Picc and Vic of no benefit - really?
No need to destroy Manchester's history - of no benefit - really

How much more do I need to say - If those against me are so blind then I feel sorry for them - and for the country - as it is their type of blinkered unambitious thinking that is driving this country down.

I am retired now - I can sit back and watch, but more than that - I can choose - and I would never have chosen so expensively and so blindly.

 

[Jonfun]

I don't think anyone is saying that your idea doesn't have benefits, just it doesn't have the same benefits as the Ordsall chord. In an ideal world, we'd have a nice linked up system with diversions all over the show like Birmingham is lucky to have - but the immediate concern really needs to be the current problem with accessing the airport from the East, which the Ordsall chord solves, and your idea doesn't.

 

[Philip Elliott]

Not such recent coinage, I'm afraid. The following isn't a complete list, just the ones I can find reliable naming dates for:

• Haydock Chord (renamed before 1990)
• Madeley Chord (1962)
• Ince Moss Chord (before 1915)
• Grovesend Chord Line (1974)
• Ravensbourne Chord (2002)
• Tuxford Chord (1896)
• Croxley Green Chord (1912)
• Cowlairs Chord (1993)
• Oxley Chord (1983)
• Ruddington Chord (Loughborough) (1977)
• Bacon Factory Chord (2014)
• Chinley Chord (prob. 1894)

Loughborough chord was built in 1974 so don't know why they would name it 3 years later?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Airspace development over a re-activated Mayfield - of no benefit - really?

The area in which the derelict and defunct edifice that was once Manchester Mayfield railway station, which not too long ago saw the removal of parts of it, until was in common with the land area of the former Manchester Exchange railway station, in that both former railway station areas are/were "blots on the landscape". Fortunately, matters now move apace on the site of the former Manchester Exchange railway station that will make a 21st century usage of the land area and bring about a betterment of the area concerned.

One can only but hope that the land area that so encompasses the former Manchester Mayfield railway station will soon be changed for the better as regards the image of a land area so near to Manchester Piccadilly railway station where countless visitors to the city arrive.

 

[Bantamzen]

I don't think anyone is saying that your idea doesn't have benefits, just it doesn't have the same benefits as the Ordsall chord. In an ideal world, we'd have a nice linked up system with diversions all over the show like Birmingham is lucky to have - but the immediate concern really needs to be the current problem with accessing the airport from the East, which the Ordsall chord solves, and your idea doesn't.

In an ideal world Mancehster would receive a Berlin Hauptbahnhof type solution to the problem. However this is never going to happen, so as you rightly say whilst TBF's ideas have their possible benefits, the Ordsall chord is one that delivers what the Northern Hub actually requires. A link from the north and east to the airport, without having to cross the already congested throat at Picc. I'm sure a few Man City and away fans might be happier with a heavy rail link to the stadium, but this is in use only occasionally. The airport is open 7 days a week, 6am to 11pm with some overnight arrivals. Getting people to the airport is a bigger benefit than getting them to the stadia.

 

[Senex]

In an ideal world Mancehster would receive a Berlin Hauptbahnhof type solution to the problem. However this is never going to happen, so as you rightly say whilst TBF's ideas have their possible benefits, the Ordsall chord is one that delivers what the Northern Hub actually requires. A link from the north and east to the airport, without having to cross the already congested throat at Picc. I'm sure a few Man City and away fans might be happier with a heavy rail link to the stadium, but this is in use only occasionally. The airport is open 7 days a week, 6am to 11pm with some overnight arrivals. Getting people to the airport is a bigger benefit than getting them to the stadia.

That would indeed be the ideal. And just in case anyone suggests that only capital cities should get such investment remember Antwerp, Leipzig, and Stuttgart. (I'm deliberately ignoring the many much older examples.)

 

[The Planner]

Someone will need to explain the need for 24 platforms at Piccadilly to me, what are you filling them with and how are they getting there?

 

[PR1Berske]

Someone will need to explain the need for 24 platforms at Piccadilly to me, what are you filling them with and how are they getting there?

Maybe services from Yorkshire via the Ordsal......oh, wait.....

 

[Altfish]

Not such recent coinage, I'm afraid. The following isn't a complete list, just the ones I can find reliable naming dates for:

• Haydock Chord (renamed before 1990)
• Madeley Chord (1962)
• Ince Moss Chord (before 1915)
• Grovesend Chord Line (1974)
• Ravensbourne Chord (2002)
• Tuxford Chord (1896)
• Croxley Green Chord (1912)
• Cowlairs Chord (1993)
• Oxley Chord (1983)
• Ruddington Chord (Loughborough) (1977)
• Bacon Factory Chord (2014)
• Chinley Chord (prob. 1894)

Strangely though it was the Windsor Link in the 80s

 

[Old Yard Dog]

If he succeeds...The fact that a Judical review and an appeal have already gone against him strongly indicates that all all the procedures have been adhered too. As I understand this latest case is an appeal against the decision by the Judge who heared his previous case not to grant him the right to appeal, so even if he wins this latest case he will then be allowed to appeal the previous decision to proceed with building the chord. If he loses then are all his legal avenues exhausted?

The law reminds me of little kids who, when they lose a game or a toss, say lets make it best out of 3 or best out of 5. The only winners are the legal profession who seem incapable of getting it right first time.

 

[aylesbury]

As was said by someone on the news a while ago the infrastructure of GB is still a very Victorian one.So improvements must be made and quickly or else connectivity will stop.Improvements such as the curve must be built as must new rail and road projects and with a new approach to public engagement so as to stop court challenges such as we have seen.

 

[misterredmist]

The law reminds me of little kids who, when they lose a game or a toss, say lets make it best out of 3 or best out of 5. The only winners are the legal profession who seem incapable of getting it right first time.

But that's just it, the Legal Profession do get it right OYD , for THEMSELVES - they pocket all those tossed coins and the all the ones from the subsequent appeals...nice work for them, meanwhile the world comes to a standstill for all the real people............