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Ordsall Chord

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MarkyT

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You could rebuild the MOSI line a bit higher with a gap where it crosses the chord, and shoot the MOSI trains across at great speed in the gaps between service trains. They were supposed to be powered by a Rocket after all...

Edwin (only one degree, none of which was applied while making this post).

You could use a Queensland (Australia) cane railway drawbridge style crossing. That way you could retain some cant on the curve.
https://youtu.be/-UcbflOnffg

It's no more practical than flat diamonds though. Traffic density in the area will mean there'd rarely be any margin to use it at all during civilised hours, and especially not for non main line certified historic stock such as the 'Planet' replica shuttling up and down over such a contraption. Imagine the disruption should the mechanism fail in service.
 
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Philip Phlopp

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You could use a Queensland (Australia) cane railway drawbridge style crossing. That way you could retain some cant on the curve.
https://youtu.be/-UcbflOnffg

It's no more practical than flat diamonds though. Traffic density in the area will mean there'd rarely be any margin to use it at all during civilised hours, and especially not for non main line certified historic stock such as the 'Planet' replica shuttling up and down over such a contraption. Imagine the disruption should the mechanism fail in service.

It's all a moot point.

The days of, as Harry Needle calls them, the "cheese butty special" is numbered.

David Smith at WCRC is hell bent on losing his operating licence, there's hardly a steam train out there which doesn't set fire to vast swathes of the countryside during the summer, the charter stock out there today fails things like disabled access and sewage discharge, and some of it really shouldn't be mainline certified, it should be condemned.

There's really no need for MOSI to remain rail connected, the traffic is going to drop off the network in the next few years.
 

snail

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What would VictorianGothic.co.uk have been saying 170-odd years ago about the decision to stop passenger services from Liverpool Road station after just 14 years?
 

HowardGWR

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Howard, I'm sure that was Brunels answer to Lardner Diosious ( may have spelt that wrong) who was one of the favoured early railway experimentalist a who's special train was delayed at Paddington and then told to run wrong line until he saw a steam plume in the distance on the same line. on his enquiring about Brunels intentions on meeting him on the same piece of track in opposite directions during the early days of the GWR.
Yes, I admit I'd forgotten who it was*, but the sentiment appealed to me.

Dionysius Lardner was of course the fellow who, with all his education, made some 'interesting' predictions about what would happen to trains in Box Tunnel.

*comes of only having A levels instead of all those degrees.
 

Elecman

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Yes, I admit I'd forgotten who it was*, but the sentiment appealed to me.

Dionysius Lardner was of course the fellow who, with all his education, made some 'interesting' predictions about what would happen to trains in Box Tunnel.

*comes of only having A levels instead of all those degrees.

Passengers being unable to breathe was one of his predictions wasn't it?
 

deltic08

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My post was considered. Your original post contained no qualification whatsoever and unambiguously presents the suppression as fact, whatever the context. (Apart from being in my view, pure conspiracy theory worthy of a tin foil hat award.)

I'll leave others to decide whose views are blinkered.

Refer to #1056
 
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61653 HTAFC

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With regard to stock transfers, I commented way back on this thread about how much of the stock at MOSI is pre-grouping (or rather replicas thereof) and if it was to be moved by rail would be subject to a large number of speed restrictions even if it was passed fit to run. Additionally with any stock moves there is a tipping point in terms of the number of vehicles being moved, below which movement by road is usually easier and cheaper even for mainline certified vehicles such as locomotives. For the quaint curiosities based at MOSI road will always be the more pragmatic option.
 

deltic08

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I too have nothing further to add, I am more than happy to let other posters decide for themselves on what has been said to date.

But I can stand back and see it from both sides as I don't have an opinion either way. You seem unable to do that without insulting or trying to humilliate those who have an opinion other than yours. Just typical of this forum.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Which, to save people going back five pages, confirms that you had no evidence whatever to support that statement. I think this topic is contentious enough without people making baseless allegations.

Didn't make any allegations. Was looking impartially at the arguments without malice unlike some posters.
 

MarkyT

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With regard to stock transfers, I commented way back on this thread about how much of the stock at MOSI is pre-grouping (or rather replicas thereof) and if it was to be moved by rail would be subject to a large number of speed restrictions even if it was passed fit to run. Additionally with any stock moves there is a tipping point in terms of the number of vehicles being moved, below which movement by road is usually easier and cheaper even for mainline certified vehicles such as locomotives. For the quaint curiosities based at MOSI road will always be the more pragmatic option.

And good luck getting a UK mainline certificate for the Pakistan Railways 4-4-0 or the South African Garratt!
 

snowball

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Didn't make any allegations. Was looking impartially at the arguments without malice unlike some posters.

You've got a very short memory. In #1051 you alleged that public consultation was suppressed.

Edit: Then in #1056 you admitted that you had no basis for this allegation.

How can you claim to be impartial when you make an allegation, then admit you have no evidence for it, than deny having made any allegations?
 
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lejog

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But I can stand back and see it from both sides as I don't have an opinion either way. You seem unable to do that without insulting or trying to humilliate those who have an opinion other than yours. Just typical of this forum.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Didn't make any allegations. Was looking impartially at the arguments without malice unlike some posters.

I'm quite happy for people to have different opinions, although I certainly may challenge them. Have I questioned your opinions of the Hub/Chord on this thread? I don't remember doing so (although I don't claim my memory is perfect).

However I will always question when people make ridiculous statements of fact, which appear not to be based on any evidence.

As for insulting, may I refer you back to this post. Although your original post has been moderated, you can see that apparently I'm an arse making idiotic posts, ironically enough because I questioned your statements of fact. Yet again, a case of the pot calling the kettle black.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
How can you claim to be impartial when you make an allegation, then admit you have no evidence for it, than deny having made any allegations?

Very well put.
 
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furnessvale

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And good luck getting a UK mainline certificate for the Pakistan Railways 4-4-0 or the South African Garratt!

As a matter of interest, just how many moves on/off site have been made on their own wheels in recent years, and how does that compare as a percentage of total moves in that time?

What I am really asking, is there ANY sort of justification for stopping a major city transport improvement scheme on the available figures?
 

MarkyT

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As a matter of interest, just how many moves on/off site have been made on their own wheels in recent years, and how does that compare as a percentage of total moves in that time?

What I am really asking, is there ANY sort of justification for stopping a major city transport improvement scheme on the available figures?

I think the cumulative total number of museum exhibits moved in or out by rail has been essentially zero or very close to that. There HAVE been rail excursions entering the site, but these have been very few and far between to commemorate certain very special occasions, and these have probably been no more frequent that once annually at best I suspect. Working typical length excursions into the site was always difficult. Trains could fit, but there was no long run round loop or continuous high platform. Such facilities could, no doubt, have been constructed, but that would itself have destroyed some of the historical fabric and context of the site as they have never existed at any time in the past. There have been other opportunistic uses of the connection and museum site. A WCRC class 47 that had caught fire nearby obtained brief sanctuary in MOSI fairly recently, presumably in an attempt by NR to clear and reopen the line as quickly as possible after the incident. but the loco's remains were hauled away by road subsequently.
 
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deltic08

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This is what I said. I was agreeing with a poster who attended the Inquiry that this Government is suppressing freedom of speech in many ways and appears to have done so with this decision by what is claimed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
You've got a very short memory. In #1051 you alleged that public consultation was suppressed.

Edit: Then in #1056 you admitted that you had no basis for this allegation.

How can you claim to be impartial when you make an allegation, then admit you have no evidence for it, than deny having made any allegations?

See above. Impartial regarding the chord but allegation that Government is becoming ever more secretive in decision making, I own up to.
 
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Philip Phlopp

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This is what I said. I was agreeing with a poster who attended the Inquiry that this Government is suppressing freedom of speech in many ways and appears to have done so with this decision by what is claimed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


See above. Impartial regarding the chord but allegation that Government is becoming ever more secretive in decision making, I own up to.

That might be what you had in your head and tried to post, it's certainly not how it comes across on screen. Your post makes direct allegations of the Inquiry being suppressed when it was absolutely not suppressed, indeed the only way it could have been more open was if people were grabbed off the streets of Manchester and dragged kicking and screaming into the inquiry, though god alone knows, there's been enough kicking and screaming since.
 

snowball

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That might be what you had in your head and tried to post, it's certainly not how it comes across on screen. Your post makes direct allegations of the Inquiry being suppressed

Had Philip not posted this I would have posted something similar.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The case tracker is now saying this for Whitby's case:

Hearing Status: Float on 12-Apr-16 or 13-Apr-16 - estimated length (in hours): 10:00
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And he's seeking an injunction this week to stop the work:

http://www.manchesterconfidential.c...by-seeks-legal-halt-to-ordsall-chord-starting
 
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SodTheDrummer

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Had Philip not posted this I would have posted something similar.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The case tracker is now saying this for Whitby's case:


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And he's seeking an injunction this week to stop the work:

http://www.manchesterconfidential.c...by-seeks-legal-halt-to-ordsall-chord-starting

Getting a bit fed up of this irritating little man. Representing as he does, the 3 or 4 people who want to see the link to LSS retained at the cost of progress, growth, regeneration etc. Can we not somehow resurrect Mr Stephenson to give the guy a resounding slap round the face with a wet fish? :D
 

snowball

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I don't think his case is mainly about the rail link. I think it's about the setting of the listed buildings.
 

SodTheDrummer

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I don't think his case is mainly about the rail link. I think it's about the setting of the listed buildings.

Or maybe the fact his ego has been bruised by the fact his preferred design was rejected, due to (as Philip and Joseph have pointed out) very good operational reasons - something which Whitby either doesn't understand or care about..

I wonder if he'd have carried it this far if he hadn't had the limited legal cost thingy in his favour...?
 

61653 HTAFC

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Getting a bit fed up of this irritating little man. Representing as he does, the 3 or 4 people who want to see the link to LSS retained at the cost of progress, growth, regeneration etc. Can we not somehow resurrect Mr Stephenson to give the guy a resounding slap round the face with a wet fish? :D

I'd already suggested a Huskisson-type solution might be in order, albeit with tongue-in-cheek, a little. MOSI has a Rocket replica after all...
 

Domh245

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The definition of a 'chord' is typically a group of three or more notes sounded together, as a basis of harmony. The name Ordsall Chord must have seemed a lovely bit of branding for Network Rail, a re-tuning of the Northern lines to produce a melodious link between Piccadilly and Victoria Station.

I think in this context, Chord is referring to the Geometric term.

A slightly off topic point, but I learnt last week that George Stephenson founded the IMechE after being turned down from the Institute of Civil Engineers along with a couple of other Railway Engineers. I wonder then why Mark Whitby, as an ex-president of the ICE, feels so passionately about something built by somebody who was in effect, a rival of his institute at some point!
 

snowball

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I think in this context, Chord is referring to the Geometric term.

And, based on the geometric term, it's the standard railway term for a short line linking two existing lines - such as the Hazel Grove Chord, built in the 1980s, to give an example near Manchester.
 
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THE battle between Network Rail and those who would seek to halt and rethink the £85m Ordsall Chord is due to get 'hot' this week.

On a point of principle this seems to fly in the face of the Court of Appeal's judgement
Mark Whitby, former president of the Institution of Civil Engineers, and other campaigners believe the proposed route will irretrievably damage the heritage elements of the 1830 Liverpool and Manchester Railway which 'in relation to railway history, is the place where the modern world began' - as Andrew Davison, Principal Inspector of Ancient Monuments in the North West, stated. They agree the Ordsall Chord is needed, just not on this alignment.

Network Rail with the support of Manchester City Council, believe the £85m works in Castlefield will facilitate the completion of the £600m Northern Hub project which will lead to a huge economic boost across the North.

Last year, the Secretary of State for Transport, Patrick McLoughlin agreed with Network Rail, judging 'the harm to heritage assets in the vicinity would in this instance be outweighed by the public benefit'.

Whitby asked for the right to appeal McLoughlin's decision at the Court of Appeal. Last month Confidential broke the news (here) that the Court had asserted this right. It said the case was 'an environmental matter of general importance' and that 'the grounds of appeal raise important points and have real prospects of success.'

Despite this Confidential hears Network Rail are about to start work on the Chord. Clearly for the company the longer the delay the more the cost of the project rises.

If true, on a point of principle, this seems to fly in the face of the Court of Appeal's judgement, a side-stepping of judicial authority and, whether we like it or not, a slap in the face of the established democratic process in the UK.

Hence Whitby is set to seek an injunction early this week should Network Rail begin the works.

He told Confidential: "Network Rail need to abide by the normal process for planning applications. If it stops the works we won't proceed, if not we'll look to take out an injunction. It remains the case that if the company had stopped to think before rushing ahead with this route it might have been well on the way to completion already."

The definition of a 'chord' is typically a group of three or more notes sounded together, as a basis of harmony. The name Ordsall Chord must have seemed a lovely bit of branding for Network Rail, a re-tuning of the Northern lines to produce a melodious link between Piccadilly and Victoria Station.

Ordsall Discord would have worked better. The battle between the big guns of corporate and civic world against the small arms of concerned individuals rumbles on.

The sheer cheek of the man. He has lost a Judical review and an appeal already
 
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