Ordsall Chord

[WatcherZero]

Its in the city centre, the museum is on a viaduct at one end but ground level at the other, theres a single quite wide entrance road though its cobbled.

So you could say practical for something short, not very practical for a long low loader.

 

[edwin_m]

When I visited MOSI a couple of years ago the day after a Thomas day, they were loading the Thomas onto a low-loader.

 

[Chris125]

So you could say practical for something short, not very practical for a long low loader.

Didn't WCRC's 47500 leave by road following it's accident nearby?

 

[MarkyT]

. . . many of the vehicles based at MOSI are pre-grouping and not fit to run even hauled on the national network.

Two of their steam loco exhibits are not even standard gauge. A Pakistan Railways 4-4-0 (5ft 6in) and a huge South African Garratt (3ft 6in), both export products built by local firm Beyer Peacock. I'm guessing, but I doubt these arrived by rail!

 

[snowball]

User "travelred" on SSC has posted a picture of a big crane sitting on Trinity Way.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=129874777&postcount=1340

 

[kevconnor]

Bad news I am afraid folks, Mr Whitby has been given leave to appeal the high court judgement.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Bad news I am afraid folks, Mr Whitby has been given leave to appeal the high court judgement.

Would this "Leave to Appeal" have any legal embargo on works currently being carried out?

 

[kevconnor]

Would this "Leave to Appeal" have any legal embargo on works currently being carried out?

That I am not too sure of l, whilst it has been reported by someone on SSC that the injunction against work taking place has now elapsed I would imagine it's entirely possible an application may be made to extend it.

 

[swt_passenger]

Was there an injunction following the most recent decision? All the reports here suggest NR cracked on with the work soon after the OK was given...

 

[snowball]

There was no injunction following the decision announced in October that went against Whitby. I think kevconnor is misinterpreting the post on SSC.

I think the post he means is this one, posted by po8crg on 5 Jan, which obviously was before today's judgement:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=129787388&postcount=1332

This doesn't say an injunction has lapsed. To me "lapsed" suggests run out of time. It says Whitby "no longer has an injunction". This was presumably because an injunction was quashed as part of the judgment against Whitby announced in October. Since then NR have been legally able to proceed. They had already been doing some preparatory works that were within their legal powers and have subsequently started the main works.

However that was before today's decision. The case tracker says

Case Tracker for Civil Appeals
Summary Case Details for 20153769
Case

Reference: C1/2015/3769

Title: the queen on the application of WHITBY v THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR TRANSPORT & ANR

Type: Appeal

Appeal / Application:
from the order of Mrs Justice Lang
High Court Planning Court dated 14-Oct-15

Hearing Status: Hear By 06-Feb-17

Venue: London

Constitution:
Not assigned
Not assigned
Not assigned
Case results:

Track Your Case:

Current Status: Case has become an Appeal
Tracking Information:

11-Jan-16: Application allowed on paper by Lord/Lady Justice
21-Dec-15: Application referred to Lord/Lady Justice





Last Updated: 11-Jan-16

and similarly for his other case.

So it seems to mean that

1) his application for permission to appeal has been granted

2) the case is therefore now converted from an application for permission to appeal, to an appeal

3) It has to go to court by 6 Feb.

Whether Whitby will now apply for another injunction, or whether NR will voluntarily suspend work, I don't know (though the latter seems unlikely at this stage).

 

[Greybeard33]

3) It has to go to court by 6 Feb.

6 Feb 2017.

 

[snowball]

6 Feb 2017.

So I would have thought he will now apply for a fresh injunction, unless he can get the main case to court well before then!

 

[anorack 1]

At this rate the Chord will never get built. The lunatics have taken over the asylum.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

At this rate the Chord will never get built. The lunatics have taken over the asylum.

Construction started.

Worst case scenario, it will be legislated for, taking the issue out of the courts and planning process entirely.

 

[Senex]

Construction started.

Worst case scenario, it will be legislated for, taking the issue out of the courts and planning process entirely.

Maybe the old Private Act procedure had a lot to commend it after all, given what a mess we have seen one stubborn individual can make of the supposedly simpler planning procedure.

 

[nidave]

This cant be doing his careerer any good.
I would make a prediction that he will never get any work with any government department ever again if he is being this awkward when he does not get his own way.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

This cant be doing his careerer any good.
I would make a prediction that he will never get any work with any government department ever again if he is being this awkward when he does not get his own way.

He's a laughing stock amongst the civils fraternity.

He'll try to pick up a bit of work from people wanting to stop things like HS2, but I suspect the Government will shortly tweak the planning legislation to stop egotistical loons like Whitby screwing up important infrastructure projects.

The damned annoying thing is as much as he says this is about Stephenson's station, it's a crap station that's only being preserved because it's the first station of its type - the design was rubbish, the location idiotic and if it was any other station, it would rightly have been demolished well before now.

Stephenson would have recognised the station's location and position is an inconvenience, and would have flattened it himself, what's more, the coming of the railway and all it has done over the last 180 years is why the Ordsall Chord is needed.

 

[anorack 1]

Couldn't agree more. If the Whitby's of 1830 had there way, there would have been no station or bridge to whinge about.

 

[edwin_m]

The damned annoying thing is as much as he says this is about Stephenson's station, it's a crap station that's only being preserved because it's the first station of its type - the design was rubbish, the location idiotic and if it was any other station, it would rightly have been demolished well before now.

The fact it's so different from the stations of today is one good reason to preserve it. But of course we're not talking about preserving the station, the issue is whether to sacrifice a valuable local transport link to retain a connection that was virtually never used and a view down the line which bears little resemblance to what would have been seen in 1830 anyway.

 

[MarkyT]

Many main line terminals remaining today, including those in London, were preceded by what turned out to be temporary passenger facilities further out from the city centres they aimed to serve. This was common practice to get some revenue earning traffic running before the full luxuriously appointed major terminals could be completed and paid for. This was essential to the economics of the developing businesses. The GN terminated passenger trains at first in what was to become Kings Cross goods yard before the final tunnel and main terminus was complete a couple of years later. The LSWR's initial passenger terminus in London was at Nine Elms before the viaduct extension to Waterloo. That was also part of a site also retained for a freight and depot complex. Liverpool Road station was no different with respect to Manchester and the buildings, fortunately, were retained similarly for freight purposes. Personally I have never understood the significance claimed by some people of the former station area remaining physically connected to the national rail network when that is no longer of much practical use.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Liverpool Road station was no different with respect to Manchester and the buildings, fortunately, were retained similarly for freight purposes. Personally I have never understood the significance claimed by some people of the former station area remaining physically connected to the national rail network when that is no longer of much practical use.

Prior to the 1844 opening of Manchester Victoria station, there were two unconnected peripheral termini, that became goods stations after that opening. The matter of the Liverpool and Manchester Railway station at Liverpool Road is well documented upon this thread, but hardly anyone talks about the other one, Manchester Oldham Road station of the Manchester and Leeds Railway and the site there now is a reminder that not all historical city termini were viewed as worthy of saving for posterity.

 

[muddythefish]

The damned annoying thing is as much as he says this is about Stephenson's station, it's a crap station that's only being preserved because it's the first station of its type - the design was rubbish, the location idiotic and if it was any other station, it would rightly have been demolished well before now.

Stephenson would have recognised the station's location and position is an inconvenience, and would have flattened it himself, what's more, the coming of the railway and all it has done over the last 180 years is why the Ordsall Chord is needed.

The station is historically very significant - how it looks and its location is irrelevant.

That doesn't mean to say Whitby shouldn't be flattened with a bulldozer.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

The station is historically very significant - how it looks and its location is irrelevant.

That's exactly my point, it makes absolutely no difference to the building itself whether the railway line still runs into it as built, roughly, or whether it has the Ordsall Chord running across the former throat. The site is wrong, the building unattractive and badly designed, it doesn't need a railway connection or the approach viaduct to be intact to be historically relevant.

I'm perhaps stretching the bounds of credibility here, but I often wonder if its entire context will be enhanced by the Ordsall Chord, as a powerful demonstration that 180 years later, the railway still has a part to play, it hasn't become outdated like canals, nor is it a messy waste of land in the way a six lane motorway would be.

The Ordsall Chord and remains of the approach viaduct also demonstrates the way in which the railways can shape urban development, the Ordsall Chord is needed precisely because of everything that has happened as a direct result of the Liverpool and Manchester Railway. I think it's pretty powerful to see that out of the window.

 

[Goldfish62]

Construction started.

Worst case scenario, it will be legislated for, taking the issue out of the courts and planning process entirely.

Hopefully. I'm not exactly a fan of this government, but there's too much potential power given to individuals to able to block planning applications.

 

[edwin_m]

Once the Ordsall Chord is finally complete MOSI should put up a big sign inviting passing passengers to come and visit the world's oldest surviving railway station!

 

[anorack 1]

Has a Transport and Works Act Order ever been overturned and a new public enquiry ordered by the High court?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Has a Transport and Works Act Order ever been overturned and a new public enquiry ordered by the High court?

I'm struggling to think of any prominent ones with DfT/Government backing and an important political dimension.

The Welsh Highland Railway overturned a refusal to grant a TWA Order, which allowed the subsequent reconstruction. John Prescott overturned the refusal when he was in charge of Regions, Environment and Rail.

The reality of the situation for Whitby and others is construction of the Northern Hub was a Conservative election manifesto commitment, it's happening, he's losing, a graceful withdrawal of the legal challenge and his emigration to St Helena now would be the best thing for everybody involved.

There are people up for lynching the guy, and I know people weren't particularly impressed with his time involved with the running of the Institute of Civil Engineers. He just about didn't make it to El Presidente, and came close to being kicked out entirely for bringing the profession into disrepute over his comments about post-war municipal engineering, that's about 15 years ago now.

This isn't a new development in his behaviour - he's always been a bit of a smug, arrogant, self serving ass. And the legal challenge is entirely about his reputation and nothing about Stephenson's station. He wants HIS choice of route to vindicate his decision to recommend the route. This despite the fact a mere simpleton can tell you it's not a viable proposition, or a remotely appropriate use of a sparse land resource.

 

[PR1Berske]

The construction will go ahead as long as the courts allow. There are worse case scenarios which involve mothballing or postponement. I think we all know politics well enough to predict that it will be completed with or without any legal "success" on his part.

 

[keith1879]

I'm perhaps stretching the bounds of credibility here, but I often wonder if its entire context will be enhanced by the Ordsall Chord, as a powerful demonstration that 180 years later, the railway still has a part to play, it hasn't become outdated like canals, nor is it a messy waste of land in the way a six lane motorway would be.

The Ordsall Chord and remains of the approach viaduct also demonstrates the way in which the railways can shape urban development, the Ordsall Chord is needed precisely because of everything that has happened as a direct result of the Liverpool and Manchester Railway. I think it's pretty powerful to see that out of the window.

Stretching nothing in my view. There's a chance here to develop a really educational display showing the history of local transport routes - with the commercial reasons for them and have it backed up with a real time moving display. MOSI can make a real positive feature of what is on their doorstep. The whole notion that a railway station is somehow spoiled by having trains run past it is ridiculous.

 

[HowardGWR]

Stretching nothing in my view. There's a chance here to develop a really educational display showing the history of local transport routes - with the commercial reasons for them and have it backed up with a real time moving display. MOSI can make a real positive feature of what is on their doorstep. The whole notion that a railway station is somehow spoiled by having trains run past it is ridiculous.

That is such a good idea; may I encourage you to email MOSI and suggest that such a display /attraction is provided?