Ordsall Chord

[PHILIPE]

Just in time to figure in the detail of the Northern/TPE franchise awards (service plans, timetables etc).
Now the ball is in Network Rail's court to get its local construction plans agreed so that work can start.
No doubt some disruption of services via Ordsall Lane is likely, and fairly soon at that.

It's good that no issues were found with the original inquiry process and inspector's report.
Presumably someone is facing a large legal bill.

Hopefully it's Whitby who'll face this legal bill

 

[MarkyT]

I am very glad that sense has prevailed. I've always felt the preferred design does as little damage to the most important local heritage assets as possible whilst passing between them. The Hampson Street road bridge to be removed is often claimed to have been designed by Stephenson but I'm not convinced it was and it was certainly not part of the original railway construction. It is not there at all in this 1840s OS map:

http://maps.nls.uk/view/102344087#zoom=6&lat=4639&lon=5361&layers=BT

The bridge span itself, which was renewed in the early 1900s, is to be removed as part of the project but I believe the abutments either side of the river will remain and will support the new pedestrian/cycle bridge.

The cast iron bridge which is also slated for removal was a widening of the original rail route into Liverpool Road station and it's surrounding goods facilties, and again is not shown on the early OS map. It can be argued removing that will improve views of the earlier Stephenson stone bridge from the pedestrian bridge and the new rail route.

The rail connection out on to the national network is really a red herring in my view. Whilst nice to have, it has only been used very rarely. Whilst possible clearly, operationally it was never easy to run a viable excursion train into the museum with its lack of modern platforms at the old station and insufficient run-round length. The internal steam shuttle will not be prevented by the new railway, but will be shortened clearly by about 100m and will no longer pass over the Irwell river bridge. The museum has already reached an amicable agreement with Network Rail anyway, and they no longer object.

 

[CdBrux]

Hopefully it's Whitby who'll face this legal bill

And some damage to his reputation maybe

 

[HowardGWR]

Are there any other planning permissions needed, as otherwise I can't see why there should be a moment's delay.
@MarkyT Excellent summary and a chance to thank you for correcting my mistaken impressions about why the MOSI track had to be severed (that was way back). The artist's impressions were a bit vague on that, in my defence.

 

[ironstone11]

Are there any other planning permissions needed, as otherwise I can't see why there should be a moment's delay.

There are usually conditions attached to a Works Order grant. Each one of which has to be agreed with the relevant local authority.

These will be listed in the Order, but I don't have a copy to hand.

However it is quite likely that some of the basics can be started straight away, although it may take some time for the contractors to mobilise and that's assuming there are contracts in place..

 

[Philip Phlopp]

There are usually conditions attached to a Works Order grant. Each one of which has to be agreed with the relevant local authority.

These will be listed in the Order, but I don't have a copy to hand.

However it is quite likely that some of the basics can be started straight away, although it may take some time for the contractors to mobilise and that's assuming there are contracts in place..

I would need to double check (or there are people here who know more about it in detail than I do who may be able to confirm) but I believe contracts were signed quite some time ago and the main contractors are now in a position to mobilise relatively quickly.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There are usually conditions attached to a Works Order grant. Each one of which has to be agreed with the relevant local authority.
These will be listed in the Order, but I don't have a copy to hand.
However it is quite likely that some of the basics can be started straight away, although it may take some time for the contractors to mobilise and that's assuming there are contracts in place..

There are 16 conditions to the Order, some of which are quite onerous - listed in Annex 1 here: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...file/416817/Ordsall_Chord_Decision_Letter.pdf
Basically many of the environmental and construction details have to be approved by the local authorities in advance before any work starts.

eg #11,

Details of the materials, colour schemes and finishes
11. No stage of the development is to commence until details of the materials, colour schemes and finishes, including samples of bricks and details of anti-graffiti coatings in respect of the bridge and viaduct structures included in Works Nos. 1 to 5 within that stage, have been submitted to and approved by each local planning authority with responsibility for any area within the stage

 

[Philip Phlopp]

There are 16 conditions to the Order, some of which are quite onerous - listed in Annex 1 here: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...file/416817/Ordsall_Chord_Decision_Letter.pdf
Basically many of the environmental and construction details have to be approved by the local authorities in advance before any work starts.

My understanding of the situation is that the local authorities involved and their respective planning departments have approved part of the works, that the guidance from planning officers will be to approve the applications, and that the agreed policy for all authorities concerned is to approve the works.

This part should be a formality.

 

[swt_passenger]

During the Reading works, many local authority approvals of finishes and architectural details etc took place well after the overall project had started.

I think in the quote by LNW-GW Joint above, the phrase 'no stage of the development is to start' gets applied to the individual stages as they become due, if that makes sense.

It doesn't mean no stage is to start at all...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Hopefully it's Whitby who'll face this legal bill

Has he made a post-decision statement of how he personally feels about the matter now?

 

[snowball]

I would need to double check (or there are people here who know more about it in detail than I do who may be able to confirm) but I believe contracts were signed quite some time ago and the main contractors are now in a position to mobilise relatively quickly.

The main contractor was announced two years ago:

http://www.nce.co.uk/news/transport/skanska/bam-nuttall-wins-ordsall-chord-rail-job/8654287.article

A Skanska/Bam Nuttall joint venture has won a key Northern Hub railway scheme contract worth around £200M, NCE understands.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

The main contractor was announced two years ago:

http://www.nce.co.uk/news/transport/skanska/bam-nuttall-wins-ordsall-chord-rail-job/8654287.article

Yeah, that's the Skanska/BAM JV, there's a more recent contract award, I'm fairly certain it's to do with the bowstring bridge part of the scheme, but I can't find anything on quick inspection. I was sure Cleveland Bridge were in some way involved too, but can't find anything to support that either.

 

[Altfish]

Yeah, that's the Skanska/BAM JV, there's a more recent contract award, I'm fairly certain it's to do with the bowstring bridge part of the scheme, but I can't find anything on quick inspection. I was sure Cleveland Bridge were in some way involved too, but can't find anything to support that either.

If Cleveland Bridge were involved it would be as a subcontractor.

 

[AntoniC]

Ordsall Chord linking Piccadilly and Victoria stations gets go-ahead despite fears over Manchester's heritage
5 COMMENTS 11:59, 14 OCT 2015 UPDATED 18:44, 14 OCT 2015
BY CHARLOTTE COX
High Court judge rules original decision was correct that public benefits of the new railway outweighed the objections.

The Ordsall Chord rail plan will link Victoria and Picadilly stations for the first time with a new rail bridge over the Irwell.The Ordsall Chord rail plan will link Victoria and Picadilly stations for the first time with a new rail bridge over the Irwell.
The controversial Ordsall Chord linking Piccadilly and Victoria stations has been given the go-ahead by the High Court.

Mark Whitby, a former president of the Institution of Civil Engineers, mounted a judicial review challenging the government planning inspector's original ruling that backed the £85m plan.

Mr Whitby's legal team argued at the the Royal Courts of Justice that he decision-making process behind the route - which will cut through listed heritage buildings marking the birth of modern railway 185 years ago - was flawed.

There are 30 'heritage assets' standing along its route through Ordsall, including three Grade 1 listed buildings.

Mark Whitby former president of the Institute of Civil EngineersEngineer Mark Whitby
Read more

Ordsall Chord: Preserve the past or secure Salford's future? Not an easy decision
Lawyer warns that £85m Ordsall Chord project 'might never happen' as judge defers decision on legal challenge
Ordsall Chord: Lawyers argue decision behind chosen route was flawed, court hears
Objections to the scheme focused on the former Liverpool Road station, which was part of the Liverpool & Manchester Railway, the first passenger railway in the world.

The station, the house in which the station master once lived and a warehouse building dating to 1830 are all Grade 1 listed and sites of pilgrimage for railway buffs.

Construction of the new 340 metre-long elevated line will involve demolition of the Girder Bridge and the Cast Iron Bridge.

Historic England and others fought the scheme and government planning inspector, Brendan Lyons, recognised the substantial harm it would cause to the heritage assets.

But following a 13-day public inquiry, Mr Lyons decided that the dramatic public benefits of the new railway outweighed the objections.

Source : Manchester Evening News

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...ll-chord-linking-piccadilly-victoria-10256974

 

[PR1Berske]

The full ruling is available here -- http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2015/2804.html

...

77 In conclusion, although I acknowledge that these were controversial decisions, with which the Claimant, Historic England and no doubt many others disagree, I am not satisfied that they disclose any error of law, for the reasons I have set out above. The merits of planning judgments cannot be reviewed in High Court challenges; only errors of law.

78 The claim for judicial review was arguable, and so I grant permission, but dismiss all three claims

 

[LeylandLen]

I write this as a causal if older observer of all things Mancunian and railways.
I seem to recall a complete pub , The Old Wellington Inn ,was moved in 1999 almost brick by brick to where it is now by the Cathedral in Manchester Shambles square. So , is it not possible to move some or all of the 3 Grade 1 listed buildings in the way of the chord? As the pub was moved in 1999 , 16 years ago, technology and the know-how has improved to make it easier? Obviously cost does come into it. After all, a lot of money was spent to protect London's historic buildings when Crossrail was started .

 

[bitmadmax]

What is the purpose of the line from salford crescent to salford central? It seems to be duplicating the line below it almost.. could traffic from salford crescent not just be routed via (I believe it's called the "windsor" link?) and then up the chat moss viaduct to Victoria and beyond?

 

[Welshman]

That line is on the trackbed of the original L&Y railway from Manchester Victoria to Bolton/Wigan, which was originally four-tracked.

When the Windsor Link was built, cutting across the original LNWR line from Manchester Exchange to Earlestown, a junction was introduced, to allow access to Victoria from the Earlestown direction, and incidentally creating a second route from Salford Crescent to Victoria.

I suppose both are now retained to allow greater flexibility and to remove any conflict between Wigan-Manchester Victoria and Earlestown-Victoria services.

 

[Altfish]

I write this as a causal if older observer of all things Mancunian and railways.
I seem to recall a complete pub , The Old Wellington Inn ,was moved in 1999 almost brick by brick to where it is now by the Cathedral in Manchester Shambles square. So , is it not possible to move some or all of the 3 Grade 1 listed buildings in the way of the chord? As the pub was moved in 1999 , 16 years ago, technology and the know-how has improved to make it easier? Obviously cost does come into it. After all, a lot of money was spent to protect London's historic buildings when Crossrail was started .

The thing is, The Wellington is unique, we have loads of viaducts of a similar age to that being removed.

Manchester is forward looking, The Hacienda was groundbreaking in musical terms, but we developed it into flats.

I would prefer that the rail link to MOSI was retained, but the extra costs don't justify it. When was it last used? It is used once or twice a year, an extra £50m cannot justify that.

 

[HowardGWR]

I notice that, under the section 'Progress', the Wikipedia entry for Ordsall Chord is now way out of date. I just wonder if some kind soul, with more detailed knowledge than I, could kindly bring it up to date.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

That line is on the trackbed of the original L&Y railway from Manchester Victoria to Bolton/Wigan, which was originally four-tracked.

I wonder just how many scheduled weekly freight movements are made to the concrete making depot that lies on the line between those two Salford railway stations?

 

[edwin_m]

What is the purpose of the line from salford crescent to salford central? It seems to be duplicating the line below it almost.. could traffic from salford crescent not just be routed via (I believe it's called the "windsor" link?) and then up the chat moss viaduct to Victoria and beyond?

In theory it could but it would then conflict with other trains at Ordsall Lane, the new Chord junction at Salford Central and the southern tracks at Victoria. Using the northern tracks at Victoria and the direct route between the two Salford stations means that many of the remaining diesel services (eg between the Rochdale and the Atherton lines) are entirely separate from the main Transpennine route linking the Chat Moss and the Stalybridge lines.

 

[snowball]

I write this as a causal if older observer of all things Mancunian and railways.
I seem to recall a complete pub , The Old Wellington Inn ,was moved in 1999 almost brick by brick to where it is now by the Cathedral in Manchester Shambles square.

Weren't two buildings moved in the 1960s? Maybe that was one of them. Maybe its 1999 move was its second move.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

I'm rather surprised at the lack of media attention to the High Court decision in the Bradford area. Surely Bradford stands to benefit from a new service to Piccadilly and Manchester Airport? But this seems to have been ignored by the Telegraph & Argus, the Bradford Rail Users Group and indeed proponents of the chord who summarized the benefit simply as 6 trains per hour to Leeds.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'm rather surprised at the lack of media attention to the High Court decision in the Bradford area. Surely Bradford stands to benefit from a new service to Piccadilly and Manchester Airport? But this seems to have been ignored by the Telegraph & Argus, the Bradford Rail Users Group and indeed proponents of the chord who summarized the benefit as 6 train per hour to Leeds.

The Ordsall Chord doesn't really have anything to do with 6tph to Leeds.
That depends on improvements on the Standedge route.
You are right about the Calder Valley improvements not being mentioned though.
And the chord will actually reduce capacity in some directions - through Ordsall Lane Jn for instance.
Carefully not mentioned in the NR announcement...

The Ordsall Chord will support the delivery of:
•Two new fast trains per hour between Manchester Victoria and Liverpool
•Six fast trains an hour between Leeds and Manchester
•A new direct service through Manchester city centre to Manchester Airport
•Faster journey times to Hull, Newcastle and the North East

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Re: Ordsall; indeed, to the point where most services through Bolton will go to Victoria (including, IIRC, all the additional services introduced post-electrification)

 

[Nym]

So what was the point in building the Windsor Link again?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

So what was the point in building the Windsor Link again?

To give access to the stations at Manchester Oxford Road and from Manchester Piccadilly en route to Manchester Airport for trains from Preston, Chorley and Bolton is one reason that springs to mind

 

[Boysteve]

Notices have just appeared in the last couple of days on the footpath alongside the River Irwell. The footpath will be closed where the chord is to be constructed from 8th November 2015 for 80 weeks. The closure is the footpath on the Western bank of the Irwell under Princes Bridge (opposite MOSI and the Marriot).

 

[WatcherZero]

Mention in TfGM committee papers that Salford Central 2 extra platforms and reducing of platform gap at original 2 is now go too with court victory for the Chord however extra platform at Bolton now delayed several years.

Any update Locke?