Ordsall Chord

[edwin_m]

Very close but wrong county. I think you mean Micklehurst. There is always some clever so and so on this forum who picks up other peoples errors!!!

Indeed - but remember that during the period it was open, about half of the Micklehurst loop was in the West Riding!

 

[HowardGWR]

Transport Briefing is saying planning consent for Ordsall Chord has been approved. If so, they can really get on with it now, I assume.

 

[chorleyjeff]

Yes, but the L&MR was not exactly under-engineered considering it might have been horse or cable worked and is only realising it's full potential now with electrification. In many cases capacity was doubled once the demand became apparent, as you say Stockport viaduct was widened, most of the Standedge route became 4 track if we include the Micklefield Loop etc. I cannot see capacity enhancements happening on this scale today even though there is clearly a great deal of suppressed demand, in particular for Trans-Pennine journeys and suburban and regional traffic to and from Manchester. Most of the capacity which has been stripped out over the last 50 years cannot easily be put back because land has been sold off for so called 'development'. Furthermore, as a previous post indicates, the obviously necessary grade separation at Ordsall/Windsor Jcts is impossible or ruled out because the land is worth more for even more property 'development'. All this 'development' increases demand on already overstretched infrastructure. Perhaps there should be a compulsory levy on all 'development' to pay for infrastructure investment, and not just railways but also electricity generating capacity, water supply, sewers etc. but I suppose this would not be considered appealing to investors in a "Britain open for business"....just bang up the properties and take the public infrastructure for granted!

Development Land Tax was intended to deal with the question you raise. There is no political will to claw back value created by public works so we muddle on. Rather like people moaning about inheritance tax when the increase in value is made by inflation and restrictive town and country planning.
Jeff
Jeff

 

[snowball]

Transport Briefing is saying planning consent for Ordsall Chord has been approved. If so, they can really get on with it now, I assume.

Not only Transport Briefing, but also the previous page of this thread.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Let us cease any wibble and just rejoice..

(Oh dear, does that sound like something the Lady of the Handbag might have said)

 

[krus_aragon]

Let us cease any wibble and just rejoice..

(Oh dear, does that sound like something the Lady of the Handbag might have said)

I now have the mental picture of said Lady saying "wibble" in her best Blackadder accent...

 

[SpringsBranch]

Inspectors decision letter here...

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/network-rail-ordsall-chord-order-decision-letter

...report here...

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/network-rail-ordsall-chord-order-inspectors-report

 

[deltic08]

Indeed - but remember that during the period it was open, about half of the Micklehurst loop was in the West Riding!

I did not know that. How come Yorkshire let Lancashire take this amount of land off them!!

Incidentally, Ripon was also in the West Riding and we wish that we were still.

 

[edwin_m]

I did not know that. How come Yorkshire let Lancashire take this amount of land off them!!

Incidentally, Ripon was also in the West Riding and we wish that we were still.

It's on the west side of the Pennines so it may be more of a question of how it got into Yorkshire in the first place - invasion during the Wars of the Roses? Anyway there's a vociferous local group wanting to reverse the 1974 changes and get Saddleworth back into Yorkshire.

 

[PrinceBishop]

It's on the west side of the Pennines so it may be more of a question of how it got into Yorkshire in the first place - invasion during the Wars of the Roses? Anyway there's a vociferous local group wanting to reverse the 1974 changes and get Saddleworth back into Yorkshire.

To be fair Lancashire lost much of its own historic land. The bulk of southern Lancs went to GM, Merseyside and Cheshire (Warrington) and much of northern Lancs, which included places such as Coniston in the Lake District, was lost to Cumbria. It was a big county back in the day, today it's a bit of a rump of its former self.

Back to rail, was the redevelopment of Salford Central dependent on the Ordsall Chord (I'm guessing it was), and if so when is it likely that work will start on that? Once the chord is complete?

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder that this thread is about the Ordsall Chord.

If anyone wishes to go off on a tangent (such as, for example, debating the most westerly portion of Yorkshire to be nearest to the Irish Sea). or expand upon a post that has already gone off on a tangent, please post a new thread using the

button in the appropriate area of the forum, thank you

 

[snowball]

Back to rail, was the redevelopment of Salford Central dependent on the Ordsall Chord (I'm guessing it was), and if so when is it likely that work will start on that? Once the chord is complete?

I don't think it was officially dependent, as its funding comes from the DfT via the local authorities rather than NR - it isn't part of the Hub or the electrification programme. But (as I mentioned in another thread a few days ago, before the Chord announcement) I'm sure it was in practice dependent. It would have been stupid to go ahead with it while the prospects for the Chord were unclear. No point in having five platforms if there might not be five tracks.

Not sure what will happen now. Might its construction be integrated with the Chord, or will it come after?

 

[WatcherZero]

Financially doing it at the same time is the most cost effective.

 

[snowball]

London Gazette notice for the Chord decision. I think it's this that starts the 42-day clock for procedural objections.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/2310281

 

[snowball]

The Ordsall Chord public inquiry ended on 23 May 2014 and the approval was announced on 25 March this year.

I've just noticed that Rail magazine, issue 772 (not the one that's just come out but the one before) has (at the bottom left of page 19) the information that the Inspector's report was not submitted to the Minister until 6 Jan. So the delay was the fault of the Inspector.

This accords with an assertion somebody made on here at the time (though others made contradictory assertions).

 

[WatcherZero]

So it took the minister 4 months to rubber stamp the approval, I would call that delay mainly down to the minister. Remember Network Rail were hoping for approval around Christmas.

 

[AdamHewitt]

The Ordsall Chord public inquiry ended on 23 May 2014 and the approval was announced on 25 March this year.

I've just noticed that Rail magazine, issue 772 (not the one that's just come out but the one before) has (at the bottom left of page 19) the information that the Inspector's report was not submitted to the Minister until 6 Jan. So the delay was the fault of the Inspector.

This accords with an assertion somebody made on here at the time (though others made contradictory assertions).

Yes, the date is on the Inspector's report itself:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...chment_data/file/416803/Inspectors_Report.pdf

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So it took the minister 4 months to rubber stamp the approval, I would call that delay mainly down to the minister. Remember Network Rail were hoping for approval around Christmas.

Less than 3 months for that scale of planning approval is pretty good going really.
It's fortunate they got it through before the election, or there would have been another delay.
A month after approval, we are still none the wiser about when NR will be starting work - details still to be approved by the local councils.

 

[SteveRainhill]

Less than 3 months for that scale of planning approval is pretty good going really.

Indeed, and it wasn't a rubber stamp but a 15-page letter. Someone had to write it, thoroughly checking and in part modifying the Report in the process. Opponents will pore intensively over the decision for a chance to object - the record suggests it would take a lot of work to deter inveterate option-monger Mark Whitby from popping up again! So I can see it taking a while. NR’s initial estimate (not for the first time) erred on the optimistic side.

 

[bitmadmax]

I'm very late to this party, but it's a shame that almost 200 years of railway history is about to be severed forever. Will there be a final journey from/to Mosi do you think? I read somewhere NR had already removed pointwork...

 

[WatcherZero]

Indeed, and it wasn't a rubber stamp but a 15-page letter. Someone had to write it, thoroughly checking and in part modifying the Report in the process. Opponents will pore intensively over the decision for a chance to object - the record suggests it would take a lot of work to deter inveterate option-monger Mark Whitby from popping up again! So I can see it taking a while. NR’s initial estimate (not for the first time) erred on the optimistic side.

Normally takes a week, not three months. The minister isn't being asked to come up with his own decision but to read and then endorse or reject the analysis already done by the inspector (and in reality a minister would never read the full report line by line but have someone else read and then summarise it for him).

Less than 3 months for that scale of planning approval is pretty good going really.
It's fortunate they got it through before the election, or there would have been another delay.
A month after approval, we are still none the wiser about when NR will be starting work - details still to be approved by the local councils.

Its not three months though, its planning applications, public consultations, inquiry, inspectors report and then ministerial signature. To put it another way the same HS2 consultation to Ministerial approval for HS2 only took 3 months for the Labour Government and 4 months for the Conservative Government. So hundreds of km of track was approved in only slightly more time than less than a km.

 

[snowball]

Normally takes a week, not three months. The minister isn't being asked to come up with his own decision but to read and then endorse or reject the analysis already done by the inspector (and in reality a minister would never read the full report line by line but have someone else read and then summarise it for him).

Normally in what context? For major road public inquiries, it has often been many months from the end of the inquiry to the announcement of a decision. I can think of one fairly recent one where it was 22 months. It's not a yes or no matter, the report will include the inspector's assessment on numerous points and the minister may accept some and modify others.

The relatively new process for nationally significant infrastucture (which the Chord started to use until it was reclassified as slightly too small), there is an "examination process" instead of an inquiry, with time limits on each stage. After the "examination" ends the inspector has three months to submit a report, and the minister then has three months to make a decision.

 

[bitmadmax]

I saw a few of those "PP O connor" tipper wagons go into MOSI the other week - could they be for removal of track work I wonder or are they just preparing the temporary car park?

 

[34D]

I'm very late to this party, but it's a shame that almost 200 years of railway history is about to be severed forever. Will there be a final journey from/to Mosi do you think? I read somewhere NR had already removed pointwork...

There was a railtour maybe a year ago that served as the 'final journey' I believe.

 

[Chris125]

Ordsall Chord being challenged in High Court

The much-delayed Ordsall Chord may be delayed yet again as RTM can confirm another legal challenge has been launched against the scheme.
Permission was finally granted for the project at the end of March when the transport secretary issued a Transport and Works Act Order (TWAO) following a public inquiry.

Permission was originally expected to be granted in 2014, with construction to begin at the end of last year or the start of 2015, but the planning process and many objections filed throughout it delayed the timescale.

The source of the fresh objection to the scheme is not yet known but RTM understands it is one of the main parties involved in the initial inquiry. Historic England (which has taken on functions from English Heritage) was one of the main objectors to the scheme during the planning phase but has confirmed it is not involved in the current challenge.

Quelle surprise...

 

[Nym]

Well, they could have always come up with a different design that sent the chord round a longer way (thus avoiding the worst convergence and conflict point I've seen outside of the Aldgate area!) and gave a degree of grade separation (while the land is still not built on, regardless of planning that's been in place since I moved to, and subsequently moved out of Manchester)

 

[Baggypants]

Ordsall Chord being challenged in High Court



Quelle surprise...

Well, yes it is rather, Not Historic England, not MOSI or Friends of, not me (checks bank account to be sure)... So who?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Well, they could have always come up with a different design that sent the chord round a longer way (thus avoiding the worst convergence and conflict point I've seen outside of the Aldgate area!) and gave a degree of grade separation (while the land is still not built on, regardless of planning that's been in place since I moved to, and subsequently moved out of Manchester)

Is it not the case that some land in the area of the Ordsall Chord that may be required by a different line route to that already approved has already been scheduled by the council in Salford for certain developments in their local area plan?

 

[Nym]

Is it not the case that some land in the area of the Ordsall Chord that may be required by a different line route to that already approved has already been scheduled by the council in Salford for certain developments in their local area plan?

And has been for the last 8 years and I've not seen anything appear yet... Sounds as though Salford are taking planning advice from the property speculators around Canary Wharf...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

And has been for the last 8 years and I've not seen anything appear yet... Sounds as though Salford are taking planning advice from the property speculators around Canary Wharf...

If you were my age (70) and had seen how much parts of the Salford region have changed since the days when the Manchester Ship Canal was busy with all types of sea freight, a viewing of the Salford Quays region these days shows an unbelievable change in character of that land area.