Ordsall Chord Benefits for Sheffield

[Haydn1971]

I'm sure this has been discussed to death before I joined the forum, but the Wikipedia article on the project suggests time benefits for trains travelling to Sheffield, but I can't see reference to this in the (albeit limited number of) Network Rail documents I've looked at. It appears that more services will be routed via Piccadilly Platforms 13/14 rather than reversing direction in the current internal platforms, which doesn't really suggest benefits for Sheffield - So what exactly does the Ordsall Chord do for services south of Piccadilly, specifically routes to Sheffield, freeing timetabled space perhaps ?

 

[snowball]

I don't know about any Sheffield relevance of the Chord specifically, but another element in the Northern Hub is a couple of dynamic loops on the Hope Valley line to allow overtaking, and improvements to the track layout in the Dore area.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The wider Northern Hub upgrade includes "capacity and journey time improvements" between Manchester and Sheffield.
This is as a result of doubling the junction at Dore, and adding loops in the Hope Valley.
At the Manchester end, the Leeds-Liverpool services will no longer cross the entire layout outside Piccadilly, and the Leeds-Airport services will just use the South Junction lines.
This frees up capacity, and more services to Sheffield are promised.
So the Ordsall Chord does not directly benefit Sheffield, but there should be good indirect benefits.

 

[driver_m]

Getting rid of that one train that crosses the entire throat at piccadilly creates big benefits. I've sat at ardwick along with another 5 (!) trains on occasion waiting for one Tpe to cross over. Get rid of that scenario twice an hour and it has to free up capacity for any other service in/out of Manchester.

 

[The Planner]

I don't know about any Sheffield relevance of the Chord specifically, but another element in the Northern Hub is a couple of dynamic loops on the Hope Valley line to allow overtaking, and improvements to the track layout in the Dore area.

They far from dynamic, they are just loops in the basic sense, whatever gets put in them is stopping at the end of them!

 

[Haydn1971]

Cheers folks

 

[Mugby]

I always think the worst bit of SHF - MAN is the section between Hazel Grove and Stockport.

I know there are a couple of level crossings and the sharpish curve at the Stockport end but why does this section have such a low speed?

 

[DJH1971]

Another benefit would be to electrify the Liverpool to Manchester CLC line.

 

[Haydn1971]

Another benefit would be to electrify the Liverpool to Manchester CLC line.

What benefit does that bring ???

 

[DJH1971]

What benefit does that bring ???

Another route electrified for a start, as there is talk of electrification of between Manchester to Sheffield.

 

[mwmbwls]

I always think the worst bit of SHF - MAN is the section between Hazel Grove and Stockport.

I know there are a couple of level crossings and the sharpish curve at the Stockport end but why does this section have such a low speed?

It is a complex operation. It is a single line over the Hazel Grove Chord itself leading to the crossover at Hazel Grove East Junction so down Hope Valley trains obstruct the upline Hope Valley and Buxton trains.Then add Preston to Hazel Grove services reversing/stabling at Hazel Grove. Plus three closely spaced stations - Hazel Grove Woodsmoor and Davenport served by twice hourly stopping services to/from Buxton and Hazel Grove. However the major problem is access to the WCML at Edgeley Junction where Hope Valley,Hazel Grove and Buxton trains cross to the WCML down slow obstructing the WCML Up and Down fast trains. Hazel Grove is also the the fringe box for the Manchester signalling area - Signalling should improve once the Ashburys/Sheffield signalling centres come fully on stream.

 

[The Planner]

Signalling wont be different, just controlled from a different "box".

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It is a complex operation. It is a single line over the Hazel Grove Chord itself leading to the crossover at Hazel Grove East Junction so down Hope Valley trains obstruct the upline Hope Valley and Buxton trains.Then add Preston to Hazel Grove services reversing/stabling at Hazel Grove. Plus three closely spaced stations - Hazel Grove Woodsmoor and Davenport served by twice hourly stopping services to/from Buxton and Hazel Grove. However the major problem is access to the WCML at Edgeley Junction where Hope Valley,Hazel Grove and Buxton trains cross to the WCML down slow obstructing the WCML Up and Down fast trains. Hazel Grove is also the the fringe box for the Manchester signalling area - Signalling should improve once the Ashburys/Sheffield signalling centres come fully on stream.

There was talk of a new grade-separated route from Hazel Grove to Stockport, using the Midland freight route and coming in on the Altrincham line.
This would remove the conflict in the northerly direction, but wouldn't be any faster (and it would be a longer route).
Seems to have died a death with Northern Hub.
Isn't the plan now to route more trains via Romiley (avoiding Stockport)?

 

[sheff'd victoria]

.
Isn't the plan now to route more trains via Romiley (avoiding Stockport)?

From memory this was the old way that Sheffield Midland to Manchester train used to go before the Hazel Grove Chord was built in I think 1987 ?

 

[Tomnick]

It is a complex operation. It is a single line over the Hazel Grove Chord itself leading to the crossover at Hazel Grove East Junction so down Hope Valley trains obstruct the upline Hope Valley and Buxton trains.Then add Preston to Hazel Grove services reversing/stabling at Hazel Grove. Plus three closely spaced stations - Hazel Grove Woodsmoor and Davenport served by twice hourly stopping services to/from Buxton and Hazel Grove. However the major problem is access to the WCML at Edgeley Junction where Hope Valley,Hazel Grove and Buxton trains cross to the WCML down slow obstructing the WCML Up and Down fast trains. Hazel Grove is also the the fringe box for the Manchester signalling area - Signalling should improve once the Ashburys/Sheffield signalling centres come fully on stream.

Doesn't really explain the low linespeed between Hazel Grove and Edgeley No1, other than that perhaps there'd be no benefit to increasing the speeds because of the conflicts at either end. Hazel Grove fringes to Edgeley No1 box, not 'Manchester' - but, as The Planner says, the same conflicts would exist whether it was signalled TCB by Manchester South or the existing AB between the five Stockport/Edgeley boxes. Nothing short of complete remodelling would change that.

 

[Welshman]

From memory this was the old way that Sheffield Midland to Manchester train used to go before the Hazel Grove Chord was built in I think 1987 ?

It was indeed.
Then the Hazel Grove Chord was built, and it was announced that it's main benefit would be to enable Stockport to be served by Sheffield-Manchester trains!
As when the Ordsall Lane link was built to allow more services to be concentrated on Manchester Piccadilly!

Hey ho!

Still, I don't suppose Virgin's running three trains per hour from Manchester to London was anticipated back then!

 

[YorkshireBear]

We have to be careful routing Sheffield services via New Mills. Remember the whole point of the hub is to remove the huge conflict of Leeds-Liverpool services crossing the throat. So not all Sheffield services can go via New Mills. Only those terminating at Piccadilly can. I would be tempted to say even those going to Airport need to go via Stockport to decrease conflict. Especially as it is suggested a South TPE service will replace the North TPE service on the CLC line.

 

[bunnahabhain]

Doesn't really explain the low linespeed between Hazel Grove and Edgeley No1, other than that perhaps there'd be no benefit to increasing the speeds because of the conflicts at either end. Hazel Grove fringes to Edgeley No1 box, not 'Manchester' - but, as The Planner says, the same conflicts would exist whether it was signalled TCB by Manchester South or the existing AB between the five Stockport/Edgeley boxes. Nothing short of complete remodelling would change that.

Low linespeed due to signal spacing, level crossings and tbh even if you increased the linespeed you've got some low speed junctions at either end to contend with!

 

[Whistler40145]

Would it be possible in the future to route Liverpool to Sheffield services via Chat Moss, Manchester Victoria, Ashburys & New Mills?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Would it be possible in the future to route Liverpool to Sheffield services via Chat Moss, Manchester Victoria, Ashburys & New Mills?

Yes but don't tell Warrington or Stockport.
The Philips Park route is very slow (2 miles at 20/15mph), plus conflicts at both ends.
Will be useful for engineering diversions and ECS.

 

[Mugby]

Yes but don't tell Warrington or Stockport.
The Philips Park route is very slow (2 miles at 20/15mph), plus conflicts at both ends.
Will be useful for engineering diversions and ECS.

That would be a throwback to the days of the old Nottingham to Glasgow service when it was routed that way after being withdrawn from the Leeds/Settle line.

 

[D1009]

Wouldn't the original proposal to make the line between Adswood Road and Piccadilly paired by priority rather than direction have helped eliminate at least some of the conflictions?