Options for TPE rolling stock in the future

[gimmea50anyday]

Middlesbrough and scarborough branches dont feature. They will therefore need bi-modes or the existing 185's assuming these routes dont transfer to northern

 

[northwichcat]

Middlesbrough and scarborough branches dont feature. They will therefore need bi-modes or the existing 185's assuming these routes dont transfer to northern

It was expected Scarborough would transfer to Northern but the ITT doesn't seem to indicate any future transfer is currently planned. Airport to Blackpool/Cumbria services will transfer to Northern, along with the semi-fast on Liverpool-Warrington-Manchester, while Barton Humber will transfer from Northern to EMT.

A solution could be to initially order enough bi-mode to run an hourly Airport-Middlesbrough and an hourly Airport-Scarborough service and enough electric to run the Scottish services, with an option to order enough electric to run half-hourly Liverpool-Newcastle in the future. However, initially the bi-mode could go on Liverpool-Newcastle (where there are more wires to make use of) and be cascaded to Airport services once Liverpool-Newcastle is wired throughout, with 185s remaining on Airport services until electrification.

The Hull/Selby services will be more commuter like so would ideally require a different type of rolling stock.

 

[Jonny]

Just a thought about the 442s as hauled stock, presumably with a Class 67 - would it need to be able to keep to Class 185 timings and if so, how long/short would it need to be (in terms of number of coaches)?

 

[Nym]

Just a thought about the 442s as hauled stock, presumably with a Class 67 - would it need to be able to keep to Class 185 timings and if so, how long/short would it need to be (in terms of number of coaches)?

So many kinds of no if it where 5 car...

 

[D365]

So many kinds of no if it where 5 car...

It's pretty much a given that the motor cars will be scrapped. And as far as I can remember, the relevant TOCs have been talking about LHCS solutions to DRS...

 

[The Ham]

So many kinds of no if it where 5 car...

It's pretty much a given that the motor cars will be scrapped. And as far as I can remember, the relevant TOCs have been talking about LHCS solutions to DRS...

...so don't worry Nym the trains will all be 4 coaches long!!!

Depending on loading, it could be possible (given changing of coaches will need to be possible to remove the motor cars) to take 3 sets move one coach from two sets to the third and create two trains of six coaches (one with 2 end coaches and one with 4 end coaches) without scraping and/or storing end coaches.

 

[158722]

It's pretty much a given that the motor cars will be scrapped. And as far as I can remember, the relevant TOCs have been talking about LHCS solutions to DRS...

I don't see it as a given at all - no reason why the motors and traction gear can't be easily removed from the motor cars to make them into trailers, admiteddly retainign their existing bogies?

 

[D365]

Admittedly retaining their existing bogies?

I read that the bogies would need extensive modification if the traction equipment is to be removed, as there is quite a difference in weight between existing motor cars and an equivalent trailer coach.

 

[Emblematic]

I read that the bogies would need extensive modification if the traction equipment is to be removed, as there is quite a difference in weight between existing motor cars and an equivalent trailer coach.

Although hardly elegant, these problems could be worked around by placing ballast where the motors are removed - or even more crudely by just removing the pinion from the motors. Really down to whether there is a use for the fifth carriage, that's if there is any use for these sets at all.

 

[alexl92]

If anyone, TOC or otherwise, thinks that 4 cars is enough on daytime/Friday&Saturday evening TPE services is enough, they're completely bonkers. Even 6 car trains are full at times.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Does the Manchester- Edinburgh route that currently uses the 350s get enough passengers on a regular basis that it could justify a new build of Pendolinos (if Alstom were willing to build them)?

 

[D365]

Does the Manchester- Edinburgh route that currently uses the 350s get enough passengers on a regular basis that it could justify a new build of Pendolinos (if Alstom were willing to build them)?

This question has been discussed before, if you're prepared to actually read back through the thread. At the moment it's not relevant to the discussion of short-term LHCS solutions...

As I understand it, the 10 existing units already aren't enough to cover all diagrams and run services in multiple. However any large order for 'Baby Pendolinos' (forgetting the Alliance Rail instance) will not come until the next West Coast franchise is let.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Does the Manchester- Edinburgh route that currently uses the 350s get enough passengers on a regular basis that it could justify a new build of Pendolinos (if Alstom were willing to build them)?

It is one of the options being considered by bidders for the franchise, with various different permutations of stock being considered, such as Alstom Pendolino units on the Manchester to Edinburgh route and another type of EMU on the core route, the exclusive use of Pendolino units across the entire route to be electrified, and the use of Hitachi AT300 units in either electric or bi-mode configurations, either as a single fleet, or alongside Alstom Pendolino units.

The promised L2E4 program of upgrades for the ECML will make it fairly important than any TransPennine EMUs operating on the ECML have the possibility for 140mph operation, which is why the EMUs being seriously looked at are the Hitachi AT300 family and the Alstom Pendolino.

 

[Haydn1971]

Does the Manchester- Edinburgh route that currently uses the 350s get enough passengers on a regular basis that it could justify a new build of Pendolinos (if Alstom were willing to build them)?

I get the impression it is more the Preston-Manchester section that's the issue rather than further north - that's the problem with mixing commuter and intercity passenger needs in the modern railway environment - operators will need to get smarter in the next franchises than currently.

 

[47802]

The question I would ask regarding potential use of 442's with 67 or 68 is what would be the cost of making 442's work with these Loco's and will it be viable for potentially 2 to 3 years usage?

 

[northwichcat]

I get the impression it is more the Preston-Manchester section that's the issue rather than further north - that's the problem with mixing commuter and intercity passenger needs in the modern railway environment - operators will need to get smarter in the next franchises than currently.

There are 4 car 350s operating north of Preston with more passengers than seats. With 4 car 350s being inadequate for Liverpool to Birmingham and Crewe to Euston services as well, there could perhaps be a solution to put longer 125mph capable trains on to those services. (I'm aware they would need SDO unless stations like Winsford get platform lengthening.)

The next franchise will require more Bolton/Wigan to Manchester services at peak times so the Scottish services can run non-stop between Manchester and Preston.

 

[Wolfie]

There are 4 car 350s operating north of Preston with more passengers than seats. With 4 car 350s being inadequate for Liverpool to Birmingham and Crewe to Euston services as well, there could perhaps be a solution to put longer 125mph capable trains on to those services. (I'm aware they would need SDO unless stations like Winsford get platform lengthening.)

my bold

There are lots of places around the rail network where at times there are more passengers than seats. Some of these are on journeys as long as that you cite. Are you seriously saying that there should never be standing passengers even for one station on long distance services?

If so methinks you have very little, if any, appreciation of the likely cost implications.....

 

[northwichcat]

my bold

There are lots of places around the rail network where at times there are more passengers than seats. Some of these are on journeys as long as that you cite. Are you seriously saying that there should never be standing passengers even for one station on long distance services?

No I never said that and it sounds like you don't understand overcrowding problems don't always disappear by the time the train is 30 minutes from London/Birmingham/Manchester.

It's a daily occurrence for Manchester Airport to Edinburgh services to have more passengers than seats between Manchester Oxford Road and Edinburgh, like it is for Euston to Crewe services to have more passengers than seats between Euston and Stafford.

 

[Haydn1971]

It's a daily occurrence for Manchester Airport to Edinburgh services to have more passengers than seats between Manchester Oxford Road and Edinburgh, like it is for Euston to Crewe services to have more passengers than seats between Euston and Stafford.

I think what Wolfie is getting at is, that not all services are full - which is where I was coming from on my "more intelligent uses" - essentially what I'm thinking is some services could be 4 car from Scotland joining another 4 car at for example Carlisle or Preston. But then other services may be 8 car all the way as they do now.

There's plenty of short formed services through Oxford Road now, 4 car 14x/15x combos, 2, 3, 4 & 5 car 175's, 3 & 6 car 185's, 4 car 350's - This gives huge opportunities for getting some new 5 car DMU's, even bi-modes to pair up with a 3 car 185, more 4 car EMU's either 319's, 350's or newbuild, perhaps less scope with the 175 fleet, but theres also a freight path each way per hour, that could be kicked out in peak with some sensible carrots.

Could there also be scope for paths to the Airport at what would be peak times through Manchester that miss Manchester, completely - Scotland-Crewe-reverse-Airport for example

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There's plenty of short formed services through Oxford Road now, 4 car 14x/15x combos, 2, 3, 4 & 5 car 175's, 3 & 6 car 185's, 4 car 350's

How many times are 5 car 175's normally seen and on what services do they operate?

 

[Jonny]

The question I would ask regarding potential use of 442's with 67 or 68 is what would be the cost of making 442's work with these Loco's and will it be viable for potentially 2 to 3 years usage?

Probably very little, since all that is needed is to convert the cabs to talk to AAR multiple working (at least for push-pull working with a class 67). This is equivalent to the Chiltern DVTs. The AAR multiple working system is also readily added to a Class 68, and I'm sure DRS are just looking for excuses a good business case to fit out their Class 68s accordingly.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

How many times are 5 car 175's normally seen and on what services do they operate?

Hardly ever. It's a long time since I saw 175s working in multiple.
There are some 2x158 ATW sets working into Manchester, and of course the peak 4-car loco workings.
5/6-car would be over the top, especially if there is to be a new Chester-Victoria-Calder Valley service.

The TPE Scotland overcrowding (north of Preston) peaks at different times of the week - relatively quiet mid-week but very busy Fri-Mon.
The alternate Glasgow/Edinburgh destinations (for both VT and TPE) don't help.
It must be difficult developing a daily timetable which suits all flows.

 

[northwichcat]

I think what Wolfie is getting at is, that not all services are full - which is where I was coming from on my "more intelligent uses" - essentially what I'm thinking is some services could be 4 car from Scotland joining another 4 car at for example Carlisle or Preston. But then other services may be 8 car all the way as they do now.

There aren't that many 8 car services now. I think it's one thing adding extra carriages to the 04:22 Glasgow to Manchester Airport service (which tops DfT most overcrowded services list) at Preston but to say that should work all day wouldn't solve the overcrowding problems.

 

[Haydn1971]

How many times are 5 car 175's normally seen and on what services do they operate?

In the last month, I've seen a 2+3 car 175 unit perhaps a couple of time - typically in the evening peak - rare, but seen
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Hardly ever. It's a long time since I saw 175s working in multiple.

Perhaps you are standing in the wrong places - I'd suggest that 90% of the 175's I see (in the evening peak at Oxford Road) are paired up units - typically 2+2
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There aren't that many 8 car services now.

Agreed, I'd be interested to know how many are though - I see an evening one heading to the airport on a Friday, often see an evening one going north - couldn't say what days though, it's less noticeable to me going the opposite way.

I think it's one thing adding extra carriages to the 04:22 Glasgow to Manchester Airport service (which tops DfT most overcrowded services list) at Preston but to say that should be how it works all day wouldn't solve the overcrowding problems.

Absolutely, and not what I was suggesting - these long distance services that act also as a commuter service in one or more parts of the journey are the real troublesome services for TPE and perhaps more so, CrossCountry

 

[northwichcat]

Agreed, I'd be interested to know how many are though - I see an evening one heading to the airport on a Friday, often see an evening one going north - couldn't say what days though, it's less noticeable to me going the opposite way.

I think Monday-Thursdays there's 7 x 4 car 350 diagrams and 1 x 8 car 350 diagram on Scottish services. On Fridays and Saturdays only TPE use a 6 car 185 working on a Scottish diagram so that an additional diagram can run as an 8 car 350 - that doesn't of course help North/South TPE crowding!

 

[Haydn1971]

So what times would the eight and six car diagrams hit Manchester ?

 

[Class 170101]

I think Monday-Thursdays there's 7 x 4 car 350 diagrams and 1 x 8 car 350 diagram on Scottish services. On Fridays and Saturdays only TPE use a 6 car 185 working on a Scottish diagram so that an additional diagram can run as an 8 car 350 - that doesn't of course help North/South TPE crowding!

Availability of Class 350s is 8/10 Tuesday to Thursday and 9/10 Friday to Monday.

 

[northwichcat]

So what times would the eight and six car diagrams hit Manchester ?

I'm pretty sure the 6 car 185 diagram works the 16:00 departure from the Airport on Fridays.

 

[D365]

Order for 19 AT300 trains confirmed

First TransPennine Express and Angel Trains have agreed an order with Hitachi for 19 new bi-mode trains ahead of the launch of the new franchise tomorrow.

Announcing the contract award, First TransPennine said the majority of the 95 carriages will be built at Hitachi’s Newton Aycliffe site in County Durham.

The new trains will be delivered on to the TransPennine route by December 2019.

As well as supplying the new vehicles, Hitachi will maintain and service the fleet from Doncaster Carr and Craigentinny.

 

[Sparks807Evo]

They look excellent - no surprise it is Hitachi with their strong bimode offerings. Livery with the absence of yellow makes a nice change!

The order for the further 25 I see is to be finalised soon as well - I assume that it's bets on that'll be Hitachi as well.