Options for TPE rolling stock in the future

[northwichcat]

I see Tony Miles has posted a different solution for TPE on wnxx. That being 4 of the Eversholt 170s (the ones Southern secured which were leased to First Scotrail) with centre cars removed will be loaned to TPE if they get DfT to approve the deal.

 

[Domh245]

That may explain why the conversion to 171s is taking forever and a day!

 

[D365]

What will the long-term plan be when a loan of that sort expires? Bearing in mind the delays to TPE electrification - displaced 170s from ScotRail to be split between Northern, TPE and Southern?

 

[WatcherZero]

The mid term plan would be that the new franchisee will purchase or source rolling stock and release the short term loans within one to two years of taking over. Long term if bi-mode the engines could be removed or new electric stock could be procured when North Transpennine electrification is completed.

 

[alexl92]

I see Tony Miles has posted a different solution for TPE on wnxx. That being 4 of the Eversholt 170s (the ones Southern secured which were leased to First Scotrail) with centre cars removed will be loaned to TPE if they get DfT to approve the deal.

Why with centre cars removed? 3 cars isnt enough as it is...

 

[WatcherZero]

Presumably so they run as 2x2 car formations rather than 3/6.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Isn't the DfT going to have to bite the bullet and order a load of DMUs for various TOCs given the delays in electrification schemes and with some existing DMUs having a question mark over their future? Could a DMU be designed with a pan well, external 3rd rail equipment and the engine, fuel tank and other associated bits being modules which could be removed and replaced with an electric traction package?

 

[northwichcat]

Isn't the DfT going to have to bite the bullet and order a load of DMUs for various TOCs given the delays in electrification schemes and with some existing DMUs having a question mark over their future? Could a DMU be designed with a pan well, external 3rd rail equipment and the engine, fuel tank and other associated bits being modules which could be removed and replaced with an electric traction package?

There's really two separate issues for TPE:

1. What will replace the remaining 170s when they go to Chiltern.
2. What rolling stock is acquired for the next franchise.

For the first issue an immediate solution is required - there's no time to procure new stock.

For the second issue there is time to procure time but the sooner additional stock is in service the better.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why with centre cars removed? 3 cars isnt enough as it is...

Presumably so they run as 2x2 car formations rather than 3/6.

I imagine it's to do with the Direct Award agreement which says the rolling stock available to the franchise is 4 x 2 car 170s, alongside the 51 x 3 car 185s, 10 x 4 car 350s and 6 x 2 car 156s.

 

[WatcherZero]

There are a few of the smaller stations on South TPE I believe cant be called at by longer formations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would have been fine if they hadn't been so silly as not to specify gangways and UDS/SDO.

 

[northwichcat]

There are a few of the smaller stations on South TPE I believe cant be called at by longer formations.

Currently there is a 2 car working on South TPE which is why one working was split, so the 2 car working stays doesn't go west of Doncaster in the evening peak.

Would have been fine if they hadn't been so silly as not to specify gangways and UDS/SDO.

The original plan TPE had was for 56 x 3 car 185s and they planned to lengthen them if passenger numbers rose opposed to run them doubled up but DfT had other ideas.

 

[Peter Sarf]

There's really two separate issues for TPE:

1. What will replace the remaining 170s when they go to Chiltern.
2. What rolling stock is acquired for the next franchise.

For the first issue an immediate solution is required - there's no time to procure new stock.

For the second issue there is time to procure time but the sooner additional stock is in service the better.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---




I imagine it's to do with the Direct Award agreement which says the rolling stock available to the franchise is 4 x 2 car 170s, alongside the 51 x 3 car 185s, 10 x 4 car 350s and 6 x 2 car 156s.

That would also mean Southern could use the freed up centre cars to make some of their existing 2-car 171s into 3-car or more likely 4-car units ?.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

That would also mean Southern could use the freed up centre cars to make some of their existing 2-car 171s into 3-car or more likely 4-car units ?.

Would the centre cars be able to be inserted straight in or would they need modifying? Presumably something would need updating in the TMS

 

[Class377/5]

Would the centre cars be able to be inserted straight in or would they need modifying? Presumably something would need updating in the TMS

Major mods are required which is why they only took four at once.

Don't forget that the proposal to give some units earmarked for Southern to TPE are temporary measure until the end of the franchise only.

 

[Haydn1971]

Don't forget that the proposal to give some units earmarked for Southern to TPE are temporary measure until the end of the franchise only.

It could be longer... If the new franchise goes down the new rolling stock route or even seeks to use cascaded stock from franchises with new stock on the way, it could be 2-3 years before the new franchise is in a place to deliver the rolling stock plans in their respective bid.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Major mods are required which is why they only took four at once.

Don't forget that the proposal to give some units earmarked for Southern to TPE are temporary measure until the end of the franchise only.

Is there major differences in the configuration of all the pipes and cables that run from an intermediate coach to an end coach?

 

[northwichcat]

It could be longer... If the new franchise goes down the new rolling stock route or even seeks to use cascaded stock from franchises with new stock on the way, it could be 2-3 years before the new franchise is in a place to deliver the rolling stock plans in their respective bid.

The TPE ITT stated that bidders were presume they would receive 4 x 170 equivalents which will be available to them until December 2017. However, Tony Miles has hinted a loan of Southern 170s will be until next April only with something else taking their place for the next franchise.

I think loco-hauled on Liverpool to Newcastle services may finish up being the only option until new stock can be procured.

 

[Nym]

Is there major differences in the configuration of all the pipes and cables that run from an intermediate coach to an end coach?

given where they where designed and built, proberbly...

 

[Jonny]

The TPE ITT stated that bidders were presume they would receive 4 x 170 equivalents which will be available to them until December 2017. However, Tony Miles has hinted a loan of Southern 170s will be until next April only with something else taking their place for the next franchise.

I think loco-hauled on Liverpool to Newcastle services may finish up being the only option until new stock can be procured.

Good luck fitting LHCS into Platform 9 at Newcastle!

 

[Haydn1971]

I think loco-hauled on Liverpool to Newcastle services may finish up being the only option until new stock can be procured.

Isn't that going to play havoc with the York-Leeds-Manchester section with poor dwell times for end door stock and limited opportunity for loco hauled to gain lost time ?

Plus, thinking aloud, is loco hauled possible in the current timetable on TPE South given the reverse at Piccadilly - is it faster for a driver to swap ends on a DMU than loco/trailer combo ? Cleethorpes would be an issue on that I guess also ?

 

[Viscount702]

I think end door carriages are not as much of a problem as people claim.

HSTs stop all the time at Reading and that carries an awful lot of commuters.

Because of the chaos in relation to stock for both TPE and Northern I wouldn't be surprised if the grant of the new franchises are delayed because of lack of stock. That said clearly things are going on in the back ground of which we are unaware and therefore things may not be as bad as they appear. Nonetheless Northern are the bigger problem in my view.

Both are due to start in April 2016. I presume at start TPE have to run the services they were running in December 2014 except Blackpool Barrow and Windermere which transfer to Northern with the enhancements starting in December 2017. The stock which it seems they will have at start is 10 x 350 and the 185s. The 170s and the 156s will have gone.

Is that sufficient to run what is the December 2014 timetable( except as above). If not then extra stock will be needed at start. Also are 185s able to run Hull in place of the 170s.

 

[Stats]

Isn't that going to play havoc with the York-Leeds-Manchester section with poor dwell times for end door stock and limited opportunity for loco hauled to gain lost time ?

I'd agree, loco hauled stock is wholly unsuitable for the TPE North core. Would, perhaps, a better solution be to give XC loco hauled stock for some north to south intercity routes, enabling Voyagers to be cascaded to the Nottingham to Cardiff route, and in turn the XC 170s to TPE?

As the direct award is due for XC next year, there is some scope for DfT to negotiate rolling stock allocation.

 

[47802]

I think end door carriages are not as much of a problem as people claim.

HSTs stop all the time at Reading and that carries an awful lot of commuters.

Because of the chaos in relation to stock for both TPE and Northern I wouldn't be surprised if the grant of the new franchises are delayed because of lack of stock. That said clearly things are going on in the back ground of which we are unaware and therefore things may not be as bad as they appear. Nonetheless Northern are the bigger problem in my view.

Both are due to start in April 2016. I presume at start TPE have to run the services they were running in December 2014 except Blackpool Barrow and Windermere which transfer to Northern with the enhancements starting in December 2017. The stock which it seems they will have at start is 10 x 350 and the 185s. The 170s and the 156s will have gone.

Is that sufficient to run what is the December 2014 timetable( except as above). If not then extra stock will be needed at start. Also are 185s able to run Hull in place of the 170s.

I think the essential point is that at the start of the new franchise's for Northern and TPE they will be expected to work the same service as at present but will be potentially 4 trains short. Now how they get around that remains to be seen it might be for instance that that TPE end up loaning less 185's to Northern to cover for the transferred TPE services and Northern have to cover more of these services with their own units, with the shortfall being made up by more Northern Loco Hauled, but as Tony Miles says its anybody's guess at the moment.

 

[bluenoxid]

The main aim of any stock release is that it needs to release class 170's. FSR, AGA, XC, LM, LO, Chiltern Railways, and Southern are the operators.

A few of these operators have historical usage of LHCS, which could be restored

The alternative is to use bustitution on certain routes or split services that could use electric units on part of the route.

 

[RobShipway]

I think the essential point is that at the start of the new franchise's for Northern and TPE they will be expected to work the same service as at present but will be potentially 4 trains short. Now how they get around that remains to be seen it might be for instance that that TPE end up loaning less 185's to Northern to cover for the transferred TPE services and Northern have to cover more of these services with their own units, with the shortfall being made up by more Northern Loco Hauled, but as Tony Miles says its anybody's guess at the moment.

I am wondering whether the class 800's will be introduced sooner rather than later, like introduced beginning of next year sometime and replace HST's, but these HST's instead of going o ScotRail, initially go to XC so that as suggested above Voyagers can then be placed on the Cardiff - Nottingham services, with the class 170's going to TPE?

 

[Kettledrum]

I'd agree, loco hauled stock is wholly unsuitable for the TPE North core. Would, perhaps, a better solution be to give XC loco hauled stock for some north to south intercity routes, enabling Voyagers to be cascaded to the Nottingham to Cardiff route, and in turn the XC 170s to TPE?

As the direct award is due for XC next year, there is some scope for DfT to negotiate rolling stock allocation.

XC routes suffer from regular delays on the North-South routes - particularly in its central England core, but at least the current stock has the acceleration and top speed capability to catch up and recover some of the delays. I think loco hauled stock would make the existing timekeeping challenges worse and wouldn't be able to make up time.

Would it be better to use the loco hauled stock (assuming any sets can be identified that are sufficiently reliable) on the Nottingham to Cardiff route where timekeeping is not quite as dreadful as on the main North-South routes?

 

[Class 170101]

I'd agree, loco hauled stock is wholly unsuitable for the TPE North core. Would, perhaps, a better solution be to give XC loco hauled stock for some north to south intercity routes, enabling Voyagers to be cascaded to the Nottingham to Cardiff route, and in turn the XC 170s to TPE?

As the direct award is due for XC next year, there is some scope for DfT to negotiate rolling stock allocation.

Loco Hauled for XC would be unlikely. HSTs - more likely.

Correct me if I am wrong but don't TPE still use a Class 185 unit on one of the Blackpool diagrams? Perhaps a Northern 156 for this and some more Class 319 working by Northern.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Loco Hauled for XC would be unlikely. HSTs - more likely.

Correct me if I am wrong but don't TPE still use a Class 185 unit on one of the Blackpool diagrams? Perhaps a Northern 156 for this and some more Class 319 working by Northern.

It would have to be short-link HSTs if they did (out of all the current HSTs across all TOCs, how many are short-link?)

 

[Nym]

How long would it take to 'chilternise' some Mk.3 coaches for TPE and shove them in a 6 car formation for the more limited stop services? (Liverpool - Newcastle for example, where the 125 running would help make up a little for the dwell times)

 

[IanXC]

Also are 185s able to run Hull in place of the 170s.

They definatley can - there are no 170 worked services to Hull in the current timetable - TP only use 185s to Hull now.