Options for replacement of TfW Class 230s

[Peter Sarf]

I still think they'd serve purpose on lines where a 197 is too overkill like the borderlands and/or the conwy valley line since they have low passenger numbers and will also free up 197s that are needed elsewhere. The 230s could be amazing trains once overheating is resolved and the wheels aren't so fragile. Though it seems by the time the borderlands line sees a renewed and refurbished class 230 talks with potential BMUs from merseyrail might be more realistic

The Borderlands 230s might soon have served their purpose. That is buying time until BEMUs in the form of 777/1s are viable. I am not sure so soon but I think that is the way its going and might always have been.

Mind you the Pacers were intended as a cheap short term stopgap for rural lines, to smooth out demand for new DMUs. But we all know how long they lasted. Especially got better once the mistakes caused by an interfering media were rectified. I am referring to the BBC Nationwide insisting on promoting an untried UK gearbox from "Self Changing Gears" when the offering from Europe ("Voith" or ANOther iirc ?) was tried and tested.

I think we can see problems being solved slowly. The GWR battery trials will be interesting and those trials are needed to test/try the technology before it finds a home in quite possibly a completely different train than an ex D78. Either converted or new stock.

Whether that battery technology translates into something for the Borderlands 230s I don't know. There we have problems more applicable to the engines (choking on pollen). I still think progress could and should happen there.

 

[D365]

The Borderlands 230s might soon have served their purpose. That is buying time until BEMUs in the form of 777/1s are viable. I am not sure so soon but I think that is the way its going and might always have been.

This was always understood to be the intention of the TfW 230s.

 

[3RDGEN]

There's only one train type currently less reliable than the TfW 230's and that's the 777's so why would you even go down that road? The Feb Modern Railways has an article re 777's and in that it quotes Stadler as giving "a conservative estimate of 50-60km's on battery" so your not going to get a round trip from Bidston without a recharge at Wrexham and they also quote a 15 minute recharge time which would ruin the timetable, it's currently not going to work.

After many months of running the five TfW 230's deliver one diagram a day between them and are still been swapped during the day, it's January so if overheating batteries is an issue how is it going to work come summer? Reliability remains awful and yes the interior's maybe great but that's no good when the units are sat on the depot most of the time. The TfW 230's may not be "shot and knackered" but the TfW 230 project certainly is, time for some reality.

 

[Greybeard33]

There's only one train type currently less reliable than the TfW 230's and that's the 777's so why would you even go down that road? The Feb Modern Railways has an article re 777's and in that it quotes Stadler as giving "a conservative estimate of 50-60km's on battery" so your not going to get a round trip from Bidston without a recharge at Wrexham and they also quote a 15 minute recharge time which would ruin the timetable, it's currently not going to work.

After many months of running the five TfW 230's deliver one diagram a day between them and are still been swapped during the day, it's January so if overheating batteries is an issue how is it going to work come summer? Reliability remains awful and yes the interior's maybe great but that's no good when the units are sat on the depot most of the time. The TfW 230's may not be "shot and knackered" but the TfW 230 project certainly is, time for some reality.

The 230s are fine apart from the diesel gensets (which were equally a disaster on the Marston Vale) and the batteries. Perhaps TfW should convert them to 484s like the Isle of Wight units and lease them to Merseyrail to stand in for the unreliable 777s on the third rail network!

 

[sansyy]

There's only one train type currently less reliable than the TfW 230's and that's the 777's so why would you even go down that road? The Feb Modern Railways has an article re 777's and in that it quotes Stadler as giving "a conservative estimate of 50-60km's on battery" so your not going to get a round trip from Bidston without a recharge at Wrexham and they also quote a 15 minute recharge time which would ruin the timetable, it's currently not going to work.

After many months of running the five TfW 230's deliver one diagram a day between them and are still been swapped during the day, it's January so if overheating batteries is an issue how is it going to work come summer? Reliability remains awful and yes the interior's maybe great but that's no good when the units are sat on the depot most of the time. The TfW 230's may not be "shot and knackered" but the TfW 230 project certainly is, time for some reality.

The 777's are having massive problems because of how Merseyrail rolled them out. They were too ambitious and Rotherham wanted that lovely press fame without having a clue on what he is doing. They were already late and needed more time before even thinking about scrapping the 507/8s but now with barely any 507s around and no 508s anymore. The reliability is really shown as they don't have a safe backup option. And for the Headbolt lane line, they really had their heads in the sand when problems started to arise and they should just move back to EMUs to Kirkby and then let people walk the 20 minutes it takes from Kirkby to Headbolt Lane! It might take 20 minutes longer but at least you aren't stranded in Fazakerley without a clue what to do.

The 230's batteries keep overheating due to their flawed design. But I think right now they aren't having overheating problems just the wheels are really struggling with all the litter and ice currently on the tracks. The 230 project could be revived but probably not anytime soon. Looking forward to them just handing in the towel and another 4 months of bus replacements that barely show up again.

 

[Sam 76]

There's only one train type currently less reliable than the TfW 230's and that's the 777's so why would you even go down that road? The Feb Modern Railways has an article re 777's and in that it quotes Stadler as giving "a conservative estimate of 50-60km's on battery" so your not going to get a round trip from Bidston without a recharge at Wrexham and they also quote a 15 minute recharge time which would ruin the timetable, it's currently not going to work.

After many months of running the five TfW 230's deliver one diagram a day between them and are still been swapped during the day, it's January so if overheating batteries is an issue how is it going to work come summer? Reliability remains awful and yes the interior's maybe great but that's no good when the units are sat on the depot most of the time. The TfW 230's may not be "shot and knackered" but the TfW 230 project certainly is, time for some reality.

I think though in years to come the 777s stand a really good chance and settling down. Especially if as believed most issues are software related. The 230s and their overheating batteries however maybe another story

 

[childwallblues]

I think though in years to come the 777s stand a really good chance and settling down. Especially if as believed most issues are software related. The 230s and their overheating batteries however maybe another story

Here here. Perhaps I am just lucky in my trips on 777s. I have now travelled on all lines on Merseyrail on the units totalling 59 trips and 1 failure which was 777007 at Rice Lane in April last year. I prefer them because they have airline seats and I don't have all these very tall people bliching my foot space.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Just to be clear, I agree the programme has not been a success, and I’m sure TfW wish it had pursued a different approach. However, they are where they are, and to respond to any news of a minor step forward by reminding us of the history feels unnecessarily negative. We know the history, let’s try and move forward and hope that TfW does actually get the things working, without constantly sniping about the past.

Exactly. We are where we are and progress is being made on what is a pioneering technology.

Good to hear!

That’s great and all but, unless your only point is “I was right all along” then it’s pretty irrelevant.

As @John R has said, we’ve been over what has been many a times, it’s been discussed that one of the big issues is they don’t do a full days work, we know that mids we’re going to happen, and now we’ve seen one do a full days work with the mods, that is progress. There is only 1 direction and that is forward. So I don’t think every time some progress gets reported we need to go back to hearing “I knew they wouldn’t work and I was right all along” from you each time.


Of course there is, you just can’t accept the positives in the face of the negatives. 175’s causes Great issues last year, as did 197’s and now do 158’s. The 230’s problems are unique BUT having problems is not unique to the 230’s.
Based on how their introduction went, and the effort that went into restoring the service on this line from the mess it had become, I think TFW are probably right to have 1 in service do a full day before they look to up it to 2 a day in December.

I’ve no doubt you’d be the first here shouting if they had 2 out and something went wrong.

Well said.

I honestly now believe that there are people who do not regard these particular units as purely mechanical objects but more of a treasured "friend of the family" with an unspecified ailment in which after a long period of convalescence, are showing the first sign of recovery....

If these same people had a washing machine or a cooker in their home that had had problems for a considerable time after purchase on which the manufactuer had ceased trading, would they still show the same acceptance of the problem as they appear to show towards the five Class 230 units purchased by Transport for Wales, but continue paying service engineers to constantly try to remedy matters?

I make no apologies for being a realist over the stance that I have always taken and applauded the correct "real life" option that was taken over the three Class 230 units that at one time were seen as ideal for the Marston Vale line.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Nov 2024 ==


Would you expect a company who had employed five employees, who at time of original engagement made no claims that they were not fully fit to perform the tasks of their employment, to happily accept the situation that then entailed. I speak as one who offered employment to a number of employees at the consultancy over a long period of time.

OK. I think you are in danger of revelling too much in how "right" you were. But please lets look at the positives. The progress so far on something that was pioneering and has also lead to a good test bed for the fast charging at West Ealing.

But pray tell - what would you have suggested as an alternative for the Borderlands line back when this arrangement with the 230s first started ?.
A comparison of expected costs, advantages and disadvantages might be interesting.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

OK. I think you are in danger of revelling too much in how "right" you were. But please lets look at the positives. The progress so far on something that was pioneering and has also lead to a good test bed for the fast charging at West Ealing.

But pray tell - what would you have suggested as an alternative for the Borderlands line back when this arrangement with the 230s first started ?.
A comparison of expected costs, advantages and disadvantages might be interesting.

I can only speak as I can see. When the Class 230's advantages were first put forward, it was with the idea of using a fork lift truck on hard-standing to exchange the then traction raft units. Vivarail actually reached the stage of being granted a 12-month contract to operate the services on the Coventry to Nuneaton line, but then the immolation problem occurred to dash hopes in that direction and the contract offer was withdrawn.

Remember where the capital backing came from. Even though different traction modes were then under discussion, it was the withdrawal of the finance to keep the company by a hard-headed American CEO that brought the end. It is the fact that business leaders with financial matters to the fore see actual results, whereas certain members of a website with no worries about their own financial involvement can makes allowances over a number of years, all in the name of "innovation".

I can say nothing to dissuade other website members from using me as a convenient project scapegoat, but thirty years in senior management taught me the need for commercial and financial reality and fourteen years into my retirement, my views on such matters have not and will not change. If this thread should only be for those with future aspirational project aims, then all well and good but whilst it is a thread open to all opinions, then let that be the case. It is up to Transport for Wales with their own qualified staff to make alternative suggestions, not I.

 

[John R]

I can say nothing to dissuade other website members from using me as a convenient project scapegoat, but thirty years in senior management taught me the need for commercial and financial reality and fourteen years into my retirement, my views on such matters have not and will not change. If this thread should only be for those with future aspirational project aims, then all well and good but whilst it is a thread open to all opinions, then let that be the case.

All I’m asking is that you don’t respond to every factual report of progress by reminding us of your opinion (which as I have said is not unfair) of how terrible the project was at the outset and until recently.

We know that, but it doesn’t add anything to the thread in the way that a report of progress (or even a setback) keeps us informed as to the current position, which I suspect is what most people want.

I’ll leave it there…

 

[Peter Sarf]

I can only speak as I can see. When the Class 230's advantages were first put forward, it was with the idea of using a fork lift truck on hard-standing to exchange the then traction raft units. Vivarail actually reached the stage of being granted a 12-month contract to operate the services on the Coventry to Nuneaton line, but then the immolation problem occurred to dash hopes in that direction and the contract offer was withdrawn.

Remember where the capital backing came from. Even though different traction modes were then under discussion, it was the withdrawal of the finance to keep the company by a hard-headed American CEO that brought the end. It is the fact that business leaders with financial matters to the fore see actual results, whereas certain members of a website with no worries about their own financial involvement can makes allowances over a number of years, all in the name of "innovation".

I can say nothing to dissuade other website members from using me as a convenient project scapegoat, but thirty years in senior management taught me the need for commercial and financial reality and fourteen years into my retirement, my views on such matters have not and will not change. If this thread should only be for those with future aspirational project aims, then all well and good but whilst it is a thread open to all opinions, then let that be the case. It is up to Transport for Wales with their own qualified staff to make alternative suggestions, not I.

Lots of negatives but no alternative.

Currently it is looking like TfWs perseverance is paying off. It is still in my view a bit of a risk as this is still arguably immature technology. But engineering progress will never be made unless accountants are prepared to take a risk. The lack of which is something that stifles innovation. Did Boulton, Watt and Stephenson really have sound financial basis for their ideas - I doubt it.

For me the problem was a very small market for a specific solution that was not mature. A replacement train was required that had good acceleration (it was a very tight schedule) and could be worked on with minimal depot facilities. The problem with the railways in the UK is that the UK expects to spend less on rail than other countries do. So a more expensive train (ignoring hindsight) was out of the question - it would probably have been the class 197 which iirc was no where near the stage where it could be considered. If this was 1965 Beeching would have perhaps closed the line. Let us not forget that the current alternative, the class 197, is not basking in reliability and was unable to keep to time on the route.

Something like the borderlines line is a very small project compared to the hydroelectric project that makes you so proud. I expect the budget, existing-options and available technology were vast by comparison. For the borderlines line I doubt there were any other manufacturers willing to spend time entertaining such business.

So I think the 230 is what one would expect for the Borderlands line. Luck has not been on the right side but progress is being made.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Lots of negatives but no alternative.

As I said in the final sentence of my posting, it is up to qualified staff in the employ of Transport for Wales to make any required alternative suggestions, not I.

If I am approached by them on such a matter, I will first ensure that a financial contract is drawn up which will cover any of my own personal consultancy charges for acting as a retained consultant to the particular project.

 

[D365]

Thank goodness then, that posting in the Speculative Discussions subforum doesn’t count towards enquiry time

 

[Bletchleyite]

A follow on order of three two-car 197s. If Merseyrail goes onto the Borderlands later these could replace the Heart of Wales 153s.

 

[Peter Sarf]

A follow on order of three two-car 197s. If Merseyrail goes onto the Borderlands later these could replace the Heart of Wales 153s.

That would be the keep it a simple solution now that the 197s are being built. Or is it too late to tag on a few more to the existing order ?.

I am not sure how reliable the 197s are but with such an already larger fleet it is more likely that they will persevered with. Another plus is that 197s run in that area so coverage would be simple.

For the long term. Battery 777s seem a possibility. Note the battery 777s seem to be behaving themselves better than the non-battery 777s. But still reliability problems. Everywhere one looks there are problems with modern fleets it seems.

As far as reliability goes the class 231 Stadler Flirts (745, 755, 231 & 756) seem to be nice and less unreliable. I like the quality of them (but costs £sss). Main down side is 231s do not currently work any where near the Borderlands line and are unlikely to, so support would effectively be for a non-standard micro fleet.