Opinions on pre 09:30 split ticket validity, one GOLDC discount one not

[talldave]

Recently, I have further refined my favourite Travelcard/Boundary Zone ticket combination for travelling into London Victoria from Gatwick Airport, but this leaves me with a niggling validity issue. I'd be interested in the opinions of others.

I'm using a full price Off Peak Day Return Gatwick Airport to Boundary Zone 6 ticket along with an Annual Gold Card discounted Travelcard from a random London station (Finsbury Park is my current choice).

So I start my journey before 09:30, knowing that my Travelcard is not valid until 09:30. But that's OK, because as long as the train doesn't enter Zone 6 before 09:30, I'm alright. But since there isn't a convenient dotted black line on the ground (as there is on the map) how do I know the precise moment I enter Zone 6? And, more to the point, what measurement criteria would be used by an RPI to determine whether I was in Zone 6 before 09:30?

The Gatwick Airport departures in question are the 09:20 Gatwick Express, and the 09:23 and 09:27 Southern services - all to Victoria.

Without diving into realtimetrains, the 09:27 is clearly OK, the 09:23 is probably OK and the 09:20 feels questionable.

But if it came to the crunch of a debate about the validity with an RPI, how would I convince them my ticket combination is OK for the 09:20?

 

[PermitToTravel]

If it's after 09:30 when you cross through the last station before zone 6, it's unequivocally valid; and if it's before 09:30 when you cross through the first station in zone 6, it's unequivocally invalid.

Intermediately, there's no rule that I'm aware of - I'd suggest drawing the line infinitesimally south of Coulsdon South (i.e. in your favour northbound and Southern's favour southbound) as this closest matches the reality of where one may use Z6 tickets. I'd be confident in them sooner writing a rule than seeking to penalise you for violating a not-yet-written one.

I can't imagine an RPI wanting to use a metric other than Coulsdon South, though I don't think they're issued timetables for all trains they work. There will be the inevitable one who insists that the whole combination is invalid if you start any of your travel before 09:30.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Unfortunately, there are no timing points between Earlswood and Stoats Nest Junction for trains that run via the Quarry Lines, so it relies on guesswork to determine validity.

I'd suggest the 0920 would be cutting it a bit too fine, the 0923 would be borderline and the 0927 would definitely be valid. Whether an RPI would concur is a different matter entirely, of course!

 

[infobleep]

According to Real Time Trains, the 9.20 passes Earlswood at 9.25 and should pass Stoats Nest Junction at 9.31. http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W72371/2015/03/17/advanced

The best way would be to time a journey that leaves Gatwick Airport on time and make notes of the times at various noticeable points between Earlswood and Stoats Nest Junction.

I was under the impression it's the time the train was due to depart or arrive that counts as to whether an off peak ticket is valid and not the actual time it departs. So a late running train, for which a peak ticket might be required, wouldn't be off peak if it arrived during the off peak period, unless the restrictions were wavered during disruption.

 

[talldave]

Off Peak validity on these tickets is determined by arrival time at London (09:50 or later), so full price Off Peak tickets are valid on the 09:20 Gatwick Express [although it took Southern 5 months to correct their website last year when I pointed this out!].

The issue for me is that the Annual Gold Card discount used for the Travelcard ticket of my split ticket combination means it's not valid until 09:30, and at that precise time, I wonder if I have entered Zone 6 or not.

[On days I'm not pushed for time I discount both tickets and catch the 09:35, no problem, except for not being able to get through the ticket barriers because Southern can't be arsed to programme the new Annual Gold Card rules into the barriers.]

 

[infobleep]

Off Peak validity on these tickets is determined by arrival time at London (09:50 or later), so full price Off Peak tickets are valid on the 09:20 Gatwick Express [although it took Southern 5 months to correct their website last year when I pointed this out!].

The issue for me is that the Annual Gold Card discount used for the Travelcard ticket of my split ticket combination means it's not valid until 09:30, and at that precise time, I wonder if I have entered Zone 6 or not.

[On days I'm not pushed for time I discount both tickets and catch the 09:35, no problem, except for not being able to get through the ticket barriers because Southern can't be arsed to programme the new Annual Gold Card rules into the barriers.]

My comments still apply as it's about the times between Earlswood and Stoats Nest Junction for your ticket to be valid . Or am I misunderstanding the point.

 

[talldave]

My comments still apply as it's about the times between Earlswood and Stoats Nest Junction for your ticket to be valid . Or am I misunderstanding the point.

No, you've hit the nail on head I think.

Actually, having re-read your peak/off peak comments about departure times, I think I disagree with that point. I believe a train can arrive late at Gatwick, but as long as it gets to London after 09:50, an Off Peak ticket is valid. I've done that many times when waiting for the 09:23 in the past - if it's after 09:23 and a Victoria train rolls up, I get on it. I know it cannot arrive before 09:50 so my ticket is valid, even if it's an earlier train running late.

However, as you'd spotted, in this thread both tickets are Off Peak, it's just the subtlety of the Gold Card discounted one not being valid when the journey starts, but becoming valid at 09:30.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I'm pretty sure there is something similar to this situation noted in iKB, I'll have a look tomorrow when I'm in work.

 

[tony6499]

I remember this coming up before but it was for trains stopping at East Croydon and it had to be a train after 0930 stopping there for it to be valid.

As the the train doesn't stop anywhere it may be better to take proper advice about this split rather than guess as the dotted line never worked on instances like Brighton Expresses first stop at East Croydon and split tickets with Zone 6 validities like yours.