Opinions on Enthusiasts Possessing Master Keys

[jon0844]

It's weird, particularly when enthusiasts try to brag about having them while on my train.

It seems weird to bring keys you shouldn't be using on to a train, as there may well be a temptation to try it. There's nothing wrong with having a collection at home.

I assume that what some enthusiasts are hoping for is a situation where something goes wrong and they can step in to save the day with their key, perhaps being 'deputised' by rail staff to act as if they're bona fide railway workers.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Not illegal to possess but context is everything and could possibly fall under the category of 'going equipped' if found in the proximity of the live railway

Going equipped to open a door? Is that a criminal offence?

 

[Energy]

I don't mind enthusiasts having master keys as them snapping keys up keeps eBay fairly empty and makes it harder for criminals to obtain them. Enthusiasts using them on public trains isn't unknown but is rare. The industry needs a scare to replace this obvious security problem, and I'd rather the scare be enthusiasts have them rather than criminals.

the rest of the world uses them simply as an alternative to a handle where one would be unsightly or inconvenient.

They also deter opportunistic theft.

 

[WAB]

We had a thread here and on another forum where someone was asking what a specific set of keys unlock, and it was not possible to rule out bad intentions.

I do think this'll be cyclical though. We'll move away from standard keys for a little bit, staff will get stung by not having the right keys on hand, and standardisation will make a comeback. These new keys will, in the interim, have started to flood eBay etc. and we'll be back at square one.

 

[alxndr]

Are 221 and 222 keys a thing of the past? I still have mine on my retired work key ring

Still in use, as are Grandmasters.

Indeed at least one area moved away from 221s for a period as too many unauthorised staff got hold of them. They used 773s and there were still a few kicking around when I started, long after they were have supposed to be switched back. The only 773s I still know of know are on people’s work lockers as they’re sufficiently rare to these days to be “secure”.

 

[43066]

Seems a bit harsh to be honest. Perhaps you meant if they didn’t have a valid reason for possessing one?

I can think of a number of people so would have one legitimately who aren’t employed in a rail capacity but may be on a train.

(My favourite T Key had a slotted screwdriver blade on one side of the T, and a philips on the other; I wish I knew where it has gone!)

Yes fair point, perhaps I could have worded that better. It would obviously depend on the situation but, as a general point, someone wandering around holding a T key wouldn’t go down at all well if they couldn’t come up with a convincing reason for having one, which might be because they’re off duty staff, volunteers etc. Even then it would seem rather odd - I don’t carry my keys around when I’m not at work!

Otherwise, based on prior experience, it would be reasonable to assume they were going to use it to do something they shouldn’t, such as access a driving cab or open a cupboard.

 

[zwk500]

This is all well and good, but dependent on staff being made aware of the issue which may not be the case, particularly on a DOO train unless someone actually complains to the driver.

Hence my preferred solution of fitting a mechanism designed to be operated by a passenger.
Although with all the internal monitoring of trains these days I wouldn't have thought it impossible to have a thermometer in the saloon and send an alert to the driver (who will presumably be aware of the setting of the AC in the cab).

 

[stadler]

Master Keys and T Keys and BR1B Keys are extremely easy to get hold of. They appear on sites like Ebay and Gumtree every month. They are sometimes sold at stalls at heritage railways and model railway events and things like that. BR1B Keys are even available brand new from China from dozens of sellers online.

I think the issue is who is possesing them and what they do with them rather than whether or not they possess them. I know of many enthusiasts who have railway keys simply for collection purpose. Many of them collect railway keys amongst other railway stuff but leave them at home in their collection. So if you have these railway keys simply for collection purposes at home than there is zero issue with that. They are not restricted items and there is no law against owning or selling or buying these.

I used to work on the railways as a Guard from the 70s to the 90s and i still have about twenty keys from my time on the railways. I also have a lot of newer keys from modern trains that i have got through friends who work on the railways. But all of these are just for collection and are kept at home amongst all of my other railway stuff that i collect.

The issue is the idiots that use keys to get in to cabs and blow horns and cause all kinds of trouble.

This video is a good example of why the wrong people should not get access to railway keys:

View attachment ssstwitter.com_1721335571628.mp4

The video shows two groups of enthusiasts in opposite middle cabs blowing horns at each other and acting like idiots. In another one of that persons Tik Tok videos you can see they have a bunch of railway keys which explains how they accessed the cab. One of them also stupidly sticks his head out the window and gets hit by some bushes. He is lucky it was not going under a bridge or it could have been a repeat of the Wandsworth Common 442 decapitation that happened about eight years ago and he would be dead.

Ideally the railways should introduce a more secure type key. Master Keys and T Keys and BR1B Keys are not secure at all. Thousands of people have them and anyone can get their hands on one. T Key locks are the worst because they can even be opened with a flat piece of metal or some cardboard so you do not even need a T Key for these locks.

One good example a much more secure key is the Aventra/Electrostar door panel key. I have not known of any of the wrong people to get one of these. This key is available online but almost no enthusiasts have one. It does not have a commonly known name and you have to know the key code to find it online. I will not say what it is called but if you know the full number than you find it and can order it online easily. Most of the Guards who use this key everyday do not even know what the official name is as it is just referred to as an "Aventra Key" or "Electrostar Key" or "375 Key" or "377 Key" or "701 Key" or "730 Key" etc by most staff. It also looks like a normal house key. I believe that this Aventra/Electrostar door panel key has been in use for over twenty years now so it goes to show that having a more secure train key is possible if you do not give it a commonly known name and make it look like a normal house key.

I know all the new CAF stock also has a more secure door panel key (like the Aventra/Electrostar key it is impossible to find it without knowing the exaxt name and code) and i have never seen any enthusiasts or the wrong people get their hands on these either.

Also the RKB221 / RKB221A / RKB222 / RKB222A keys are very secure too as these seem to be very well controlled despite being around for decades and you can not order these online without being a railway company.

So this goes to show that having a more secure key is certainly possible if the TOCs try hard enough like the above examples.

But for some reason for cab doors and lots of other stuff we seem to be sticking with T Keys or BR1B Keys even on new modern trains and this is the exact sort of lock that should have a far more secure key.

Regarding the drivers Master Keys this key has been used by almost every train since BR days. Almost all of the diesel locomotives and electric locomotives and all modern DMUs and EMUs use this. I think the 59 66 67 69 70 (which use the even easier to get hold of North American reverser key) and the 68 88 93 99 (which use a much more secure Mainland European style key) are our only trains to use a different key. Even most trains in Australia and New Zealand use the same drivers Master Key that we use. So we seem to be very reluctant to get rid of this and use something else.

I think the main priority should be changing cab door locks to something much more secure (not a T Key or a BR1B Key either) as this is the main thing being accessed by so many of the wrong people judging by Tik Tok videos.

 

[driverd]

As ever, it all comes down to common sense (or lack of) on the part of the key owner. Souvenirs are fine, especially considering many keys (BR1/drivers key in particular) look quite nostalgic and have quite a quaint design to them. It's understandable why they might be desirable as a momento.

The larger issue is that the industry hasn't come up with something better. Network Rail make a very big deal about access to non public areas in their stations, yet it's very easy to aquire a selection of keys to access a train.

I suppose the flip side, however, is that unless you have a reasonably thorough knowledge of safety systems and traction, you couldn't actually do much with a train that wouldn't cause it to stop. All systems are fail safe, so the amount of damage you could do accessing a cab is limited in terms of delay minutes (short of isolating safety systems).

Just in response to the above post that shows tik tokking train enthusiasts, surely that sort of behaviour and the fact they put it online (clearly showing people's faces), just acts as perfect evidence for prosecution?

 

[jon0844]

GTR had to conduct some operations I believe to deal with people getting into cabs, so I suspect it's quite a big problem nationally and unless someone is monitoring TikTok 24/7, it may not be clear just how big the problem is - especially if some people are choosing to just share videos in their own private chat groups.

The other issue is how many people have keys to operate gatelines, as well as the guides to using the touchscreens to open gates and let yourself out, or your other mates in.

 

[stadler]

As ever, it all comes down to common sense (or lack of) on the part of the key owner. Souvenirs are fine, especially considering many keys (BR1/drivers key in particular) look quite nostalgic and have quite a quaint design to them. It's understandable why they might be desirable as a momento.

The larger issue is that the industry hasn't come up with something better. Network Rail make a very big deal about access to non public areas in their stations, yet it's very easy to aquire a selection of keys to access a train.

I suppose the flip side, however, is that unless you have a reasonably thorough knowledge of safety systems and traction, you couldn't actually do much with a train that wouldn't cause it to stop. All systems are fail safe, so the amount of damage you could do accessing a cab is limited in terms of delay minutes (short of isolating safety systems).

Just in response to the above post that shows tik tokking train enthusiasts, surely that sort of behaviour and the fact they put it online (clearly showing people's faces), just acts as perfect evidence for prosecution?

Yes they are certainly not very clever posting it online. I do wonder why so many of these people post them on social media accounts with their names and faces visible. I have seen so many Tik Tok videos where the person is easily identifiable. It would make them very easy to find if the TOCs found out and wanted to prosecute them.

GTR had to conduct some operations I believe to deal with people getting into cabs, so I suspect it's quite a big problem nationally and unless someone is monitoring TikTok 24/7, it may not be clear just how big the problem is - especially if some people are choosing to just share videos in their own private chat groups.

The other issue is how many people have keys to operate gatelines, as well as the guides to using the touchscreens to open gates and let yourself out, or your other mates in.

Yes i suspect lots of them go unnoticed if no staff members see them and no public report them and they are just shared in private groups. So as you say it probably happens far more than what we see.

There are always lots of videos on Tik Tok showing people the codes to open ticket barriers so that certainly seems to be a problem too. Although a much bigger problem seems to be people who just force the ticket barriers open and push through.

 

[dgl]

At the end of the day having a more secure key is easy these days, use a lock that supports a Eurocylinder and you can update locks to use a different type of key easily and quickly.
I work in an industry that uses lots of keys and we use primarily numbered keys with a few different master keys for the people (like me) that need the convienece of being able to get into a place without knowing you're going to have to get in there or carrying around hundreds of keys.

I know that if I wanted to buy one of our master keys then I wouldn't just be sold one with no questions asked and would have to prove I had the right to order one, which is what should happen for any important keys.

Of course you are going to get people losing keys and breaking keys with all the issues that causes but the simple solution for most cases is to do what we did at work and get a key cutting machine.
If we lose/break any keys or need more for any reason so long as we have one to cut from I can get a new key done in a couple of minutes and that includes getting the machine out (and if I get the blanks do any house keys as necessary!).

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is all well and good, but dependent on staff being made aware of the issue which may not be the case, particularly on a DOO train unless someone actually complains to the driver.

Who, in my experience, often isn't interested, as they have enough to do already.

 

[bramling]

GTR had to conduct some operations I believe to deal with people getting into cabs, so I suspect it's quite a big problem nationally and unless someone is monitoring TikTok 24/7, it may not be clear just how big the problem is - especially if some people are choosing to just share videos in their own private chat groups.

The other issue is how many people have keys to operate gatelines, as well as the guides to using the touchscreens to open gates and let yourself out, or your other mates in.

Was it not the case on GTR that people were accessing the middle cabs on the Hertford line 313s simply to travel in, because of overcrowding? I don’t think it was enthusiasts playing with keys, in fact I don’t think keys were being used. I might be thinking of something else though!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Was it not the case on GTR that people were accessing the middle cabs on the Hertford line 313s simply to travel in, because of overcrowding? I don’t think it was enthusiasts playing with keys, in fact I don’t think keys were being used. I might be thinking of something else though!

As built PEP cabs had a box with a break glass handle with a T-key slot on it, but on Merseyrail between the mid 1980s and the late 1990s refurb which replaced the door completely with something more secure the glass was always missing and the door could just be opened by anyone, there was no means of locking it. Probably just that.

 

[cjmillsnun]

A quick search on eBay finds precisely zero master keys listed. I'm not convinced there's a 'huge problem... with enthusiasts owning keys and accessing cabs'.

I don't believe it's illegal to own one or even to sell one although if a railway employee got caught selling any of their issued equipment on t'internet I'd imagine they would find themselves in hot water with their employer.

And yet on eBay this morning I found this. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12661043...FbgCKnkWpz/sFjGCN3b2c3kA==|tkp:Bk9SR6KRj--kZA

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

Yes they are certainly not very clever posting it online. I do wonder why so many of these people post them on social media accounts with their names and faces visible. I have seen so many Tik Tok videos where the person is easily identifiable. It would make them very easy to find if the TOCs found out and wanted to prosecute them.

I think that many of these TikTokkers genuinely believe that they won’t be prosecuted when they explain to the relevant authorities that it’s “just a bit of banter and isn’t hurting anyone”

Anyone remember the guy who videoed himself entering people’s houses, who was then given a restraining order or something similar to stop doing it, who did it again mere hours after leaving court as “it was japes”?

 

[bramling]

As built PEP cabs had a box with a break glass handle with a T-key slot on it, but on Merseyrail between the mid 1980s and the late 1990s refurb which replaced the door completely with something more secure the glass was always missing and the door could just be opened by anyone, there was no means of locking it. Probably just that.

I *think* on the 313s it was the cab side doors being simply pushed open. But I could be mis remembering!

It was certainly a fairly big issue at the time, such that the TOC mounted a sting.

 

[jon0844]

I *think* on the 313s it was the cab side doors being simply pushed open. But I could be mis remembering!

It was certainly a fairly big issue at the time, such that the TOC mounted a sting.

Yes that was back from the FCC days and was also the 317s.

 

[matchmaker]

When I was a volunteer with the SRPS (Springfield Yard - half a lifetime ago...) I made my own T key - 1/4'' steel bar as used in normal household locks. When I was a volunteer on the SVR (still many years ago), I acquired both a proper T key and a BR1 key, the latter for locking/unlocking gangway doors.I still have them somewhere in the house, although my involvement in railways is now only at a scale of 4mm/foot!

 

[guilbert]

Yes that was back from the FCC days and was also the 317s.

On the 317s you could legitimately (I think?!) get to the centre cab vestibules and exit via the drivers door when two units were coupled although the cab itself was locked. I remember seeing people forcing the driver doors on the 313s as well though, they didn't have a corridor between coupled units.

 

[D869]

A couple of teenage trainspotters (who shall remain nameless) entered Stewarts Lane one summer evening in the late 1970s by using a carriage key, walked around the depot unmolested and left the same way they got in.

 

[Prime586]

Here's the recent thread about the abundance of BR1B keys available from online sellers due to Pakex undercutting the other approved suppliers by outsourcing manufacturing to China (and it seems they may have cloned a key made by another manufacturer in the process).

The 'enthusiasts' obtaining master keys to get into cabs and the behaviour seen in that video seem to be an extension of the 'foamer' behaviour of young US railfans, much of which seems to be driven by a desire for social media clout (see the current story over there of the teenage spotter who allegedly tampered wioth a set of points so he could film a derailment for his youtube channel).

 

[jon0844]

Here's the recent thread about the abundance of BR1B keys available from online sellers due to Pakex undercutting the other approved suppliers by outsourcing manufacturing to China (and it seems they may have cloned a key made by another manufacturer in the process).

The 'enthusiasts' obtaining master keys to get into cabs and the behaviour seen in that video seem to be an extension of the 'foamer' behaviour of young US railfans, much of which seems to be driven by a desire for social media clout (see the current story over there of the teenage spotter who allegedly tampered wioth a set of points so he could film a derailment for his youtube channel).

Almost everything these days is for social media clout. This leads to people filming themselves breaching The Capitol or rioting and looting here in the last week.

TikTok is just the latest tool to give people that dopamine hit by doing stupid, dangerous or illegal activities and often encouraging others to do the same in the form of a challenge.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Aug 2024 ==

In other news, this popped up on my Facebook feed just now.

Man climbed into driver cabin of train at Preston and attempted to switch off brakes – Blog Preston

<p>A man entered the driver cabin of a train at Preston Railway Station and tampered with controls including attempting to…</p>

www.blogpreston.co.uk

A man entered the driver cabin of a train at Preston Railway Station and tampered with controls including attempting to turn off the brakes.

At around 3.20am on 27 July, he began using the controls, including turning the electricity off on the train and attempting to switch off the brakes.

The British Transport Police are now appealing for witnesses and have released the image of a man they wish to speak with.

Officers believe the man in the CCTV image may have information that could help their investigation.

Anyone who recognises him, or has any other information, is asked to contact British Transport Police by texting 61016 or by calling 0800 40 50 40 quoting reference 80 of 27/07/24.

Alternatively, you can call Crimestoppers anonymously on 0800 555 111.

Edit: There's a thread to discuss this incident separately.

 

[DJ_K666]

I used to use a T key during my time at Brighton and Hove buses. There were certain vehicles which required them to secure the doors (and in a fair few occasions I prevented my bus being broken into by intending fare-dodgers who would board at the terminus and hide upstairs or try to unlock thecticket machine) so having one about my person was very handy. As to using it on a train, absolute no-no. That could get a person into deep merde.
Especially given that my route home was frequented by a bald area manager with absolutely zero sense of humour.