"Operational incident" between Barnham and Havant 03/04

[FordFocus]

Likewise, I can't wait to read more about rail staff thinking that people questioning the industry's love of "operational incident" is about trying to get at front-line staff somehow.

Surely someone like yourself who used to be in the industry would realise that these things need to be investigated which takes time, sometimes an internal report can take a few weeks to come out on something like a SPAD. The default industry term is "operational incident" because the cause is likely yet to be determined.

Some incidents can be actually quite unnerving for the people involved, having it blasted on a 22 page thread (which I haven't read) with the individual details isn't helpful. Same with aviation another industry your probably familiar with given your YouTube channel (good channel BTW was watching before you posted the link in your signature) on lengthy topics of drivel and no fact posted on forums. In the early days of this forum a close colleague of mine had an "operational incident" and had a topic posted here in which pages upon pages of ill-informed rubbish that got to him personally. Then his manager told him a local news rag started ringing up asking for details because they read the nonsense going off on this forum. Something that was tea and biscuits with a manager turned into a circus that was stressful for them.

If people want details go ask a member of staff with Tyrell and they can go into more detail on a one to one basis.

 

[WelshBluebird]

But 'something has gone wrong' also means something has gone wrong! If you are told that something has gone wrong, you still have no idea why and should feel no different to being told there was an 'operational incident'. Neither terminology will make you get home any quicker either.

As I said. Perception matters. If the passenger feels they are being fobbed off (which is what impression "Operation incident" gives), then they will be more annoyed / frustrated compared to if you told them in plain English that there is an issue that you are not sure of the cause but it is being worked on. Perception matters. And customer facing staff should understand that.

If the industry wants to continue being obtuse then fine. But at some point the industry must realise that it is largely a customer facing industry, and needs to act like it. It surely isn't difficult to realise that being customer friendly is a good thing? And the specific wording of things, especially in times of disruption, does affect customer behaviour and opinions.

 

[Darandio]

As I said. Perception matters. If the passenger feels they are being fobbed off (which is what impression "Operation incident" gives), then they will be more annoyed / frustrated compared to if you told them in plain English that there is an issue that you are not sure of the cause but it is being worked on. Perception matters. And customer facing staff should understand that.

Okay. After a thread of 20+ pages, here is what I do understand.

People want to know what is going on and get very emotive when they don't know what is going on. But......if the railway don't know what is going on either, yet convey to people that they don't know what is going on, people don't mind not knowing what is going on because at least they know for sure that nobody knows what is going on.

Roughly correct? Lock the thread, i've sussed it.

 

[Tetchytyke]

If you don't know what's going on, you don't know it's an "operational incident".

*ducks*

 

[AlterEgo]

Surely someone like yourself who used to be in the industry would realise that these things need to be investigated which takes time, sometimes an internal report can take a few weeks to come out on something like a SPAD. The default industry term is "operational incident" because the cause is likely yet to be determined.

Some incidents can be actually quite unnerving for the people involved, having it blasted on a 22 page thread (which I haven't read) with the individual details isn't helpful. Same with aviation another industry your probably familiar with given your YouTube channel (good channel BTW was watching before you posted the link in your signature) on lengthy topics of drivel and no fact posted on forums. In the early days of this forum a close colleague of mine had an "operational incident" and had a topic posted here in which pages upon pages of ill-informed rubbish that got to him personally. Then his manager told him a local news rag started ringing up asking for details because they read the nonsense going off on this forum. Something that was tea and biscuits with a manager turned into a circus that was stressful for them.

If people want details go ask a member of staff with Tyrell and they can go into more detail on a one to one basis.

They do take time to investigate properly, and it can be a day or two sometimes before the cause is identified, categorised, and so on. And sometimes yes, the cause is completely different to one first suspected.

But that doesn't mean that at the actual time of the incident nobody is aware of there being a problem. Nobody wants individual details, or personal accountability. I strongly advocate a no-blame culture and always support the idea that names should be repressed from public consumption. I generally don't like to read threads on here picking apart the actions of identifiable staff either. However, that doesn't mean the railway can't be a little more personal in the way it speaks to people.

As a (former) staffer, I know if I hear "operational incident" that there has been a foul up somewhere, and likely some poor soul's made a human error. But most laypeople don't really know that - some people might think it's very serious, like a terror attack, and some people might think it's a complete non-issue that the railway is making too big a deal of. I'm not suggesting going into a forensic level of detail, but giving some indication of the issue: "a train has been brought to a halt by an automatic safety system which will need investigation", "a train has left a station without a guard on board", and so on. None of these apportion blame, and you'll still get threads on this forum demanding to know every tiny detail - but that's the internet for you. I am sure you'll get some of Joe Public rolling their eyes at the cock-up, but most people value honesty.

Thanks for the comments about the channel btw As you've probably seen, I have a few train videos, and I could be very geeky and go into massive detail. But my audience is actually mostly lay people and casual enthusiasts, and over half are not from the UK. So, that's why I take care to try and explain things simply "the white lights are a feather indicator; here, they mean you're going to go right and then right again" - correct in essence, though of course technically vague.

The key to good communications lies in understand what the audience need and want. You should give them everything they need without fail. Then, when it comes to "want", you should tell them as much as you reasonably can, unless there's a very good reason why they're not allowed to know.

 

[BestWestern]

I'm amused by the seemingly serious suggestion that "Something has gone wrong" or "We don't know why the train is delayed" would be acceptable things to announce. We'd then have the same thread, with the same posts by the same people, presumably.

 

[AlterEgo]

I'm amused by the seemingly serious suggestion that "Something has gone wrong" or "We don't know why the train is delayed" would be acceptable things to announce. We'd then have the same thread, with the same posts by the same people, presumably.

But enthusiasts posting on here isn't what you're trying to prevent.

You're trying to give good and honest information to the general public. They've said they want more honest information. They've said they don't like generic delay reasons.

It's not about what happens on RailUK.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I'm amused by the seemingly serious suggestion that "Something has gone wrong" or "We don't know why the train is delayed" would be acceptable things to announce. We'd then have the same thread, with the same posts by the same people, presumably.

At least those phrases would actually mean something to the passengers, rather than "operation incident" (which again, is totally and utterly meaningless in the eyes of many").

 

[LAX54]

Rest assured that quite a few times we look on CCF and see a train delayed, sometimes 10 mins plus, but we do not know why, OK we do a bit later on, but for a while we don't know. could be train fault, signal fault, broken rail, sicky passenger, passcom, fight, ticket irreg, ohl issue, tresspass, fatality, signaller issue, points failure, signal supply fault, mains supply fault,GSM-R fault, SPAR, Bird strike, Animal hit, etc etc....

 

[PHILIPE]

Some years ago, not sure who operated services through Cardiff at the time as I'm not sure of the time now when this happened. A regular announcement used to say "delayed by operating difficulties". I believe this got changed following complaints as anything that is causing delay to a train is presenting an operating difficulty.

 

[GB]

It's not about what happens on RailUK.

Your right its not...and its pointless arguing about it because its clearly evident after 23 pages that neither "side" is going to change their opinions.

As I said earlier, those that don't like it should talk to those that have the ability to make a change...very doubtful anyone on here can.

 

[EM2]

But still, please do provide an example of an operational incident where literally nothing is known.

Every single operational incident that I've seen reported in almost ten years.
Unless I actually speak to a witness, or to a signaller, or to someone else that has, I don't know any details.

 

[EM2]

How about "We apologise for delay, we are not sure of the cause yet but are looking into it. We will update you as soon as any more information is known."

And when there isn't any more information known?

 

[AlterEgo]

Every single operational incident that I've seen reported in almost ten years.
Unless I actually speak to a witness, or to a signaller, or to someone else that has, I don't know any details.

Is this from your perspective as a controller, or from a position where you are relying on information coming from a controller? In other words, are you claiming the railway typically knows literally nothing about an operational incident?

Not even "a train has come to a halt ahead, and this is under investigation". Really?

Note I am not criticising front line staff for relaying what they are told, merely the blanket RDG policy of using "operational incident" in customer-facing language.

 

[EM2]

Is this from your perspective as a controller, or from a position where you are relying on information coming from a controller? In other words, are you claiming the railway typically knows literally nothing about an operational incident?

Not even "a train has come to a halt ahead, and this is under investigation". Really?

Note I am not criticising front line staff for relaying what they are told, merely the blanket RDG policy of using "operational incident" in customer-facing language.

I am stating that *I* and my team know nothing. I can look on CCF and I can see that a train has stopped. I can check Tyrell and read what the messages say (if there are any). But beyond that, no.
This is from my perspective as customer-facing staff, station controller/announcer and now duty manager.

 

[WelshBluebird]

And when there isn't any more information known?

"We apologise for delay, we are currently being held at a red signal (replace as appropriate for the issue). We are not sure of the reason why yet but are looking into it. We will update you at regular intervals or as soon as any more information is known."

Followed by regular announcements to reiterate what is happening (or that the cause is still unknown but is being looked into).

Obviously tailor the wording to the situation (so instead you could say "we are currently unable to move the train due to a fault on the service that we are currently investigating"), but hiding behind anything else (such as meaningless phrases like "operational incident") is just not going to fly with many passengers.

Again, guards (or drivers on DOO services as they are in charge of the announcements) are customer facing staff and so really should be responsible for keeping passengers informed (and trained in the best ways to dispense information to passengers).

 

[EM2]

"We apologise for delay, we are currently being held at a red signal (replace as appropriate for the issue). We are not sure of the reason why yet but are looking into it. We will update you at regular intervals or as soon as any more information is known."

Obviously tailor the wording to the situation (so instead you could say "we are currently unable to move the train due to a fault on the service that we are currently investigating"), but hiding behind anything else (such as meaningless phrases like "operational incident") is just not going to fly with many passengers.

I'm in a station. How do I know?

 

[AlterEgo]

I am stating that *I* and my team know nothing. I can look on CCF and I can see that a train has stopped. I can check Tyrell and read what the messages say (if there are any). But beyond that, no.
This is from my perspective as customer-facing staff, station controller/announcer and now duty manager.

Then, if that's the case, you should be empowered to tell people that a train has come to a halt, and that this is being investigated. You should be empowered to tell them that, because that is what you know, and there's no good reason why passengers shouldn't know that.

I know that at present you have to tell people this is an operational incident, but it is unhelpful and vague - that is not your fault of course.

My argument is only about empowering staff to be able to give the same information that passengers can glean from other sources. Otherwise, in an increasingly digitally- and socially-connected world, the front line staffer's role in providing information is at risk of being usurped.

I know that if my train comes to an unexpected halt this evening at Esher, I can flip open my phone and access numerous rail open data apps to find out what's going on, what's stuck where, and maybe even check Twitter see what witnesses are saying about it "LOL our train forgot to stop at Woking now we have to get a taxi LOL #bants". I know more than the guard, simply because I have a smartphone. It's no surprise therefore that passengers rate on-train information as poor. Passengers during their journey rated their information priorities as 1st) impact 2nd) problem 3rd) advice. 17% of passengers use digital sources. 15% speak to the guard, with a similar amount speaking to other passengers to find out more information.

Once again, railway management are behind the times - failing to notice the world evolving around them. None of the decision makers in this field are (knowingly to me anyway) on this forum, but it does concern me that for all the political footballing over the role of staff on the railway that front-line staff can't seem to see my point.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I'm in a station. How do I know?

"We apologise for delay, the xx:xx service to x has experienced an issue between x and x (using timing points where available). We are not sure of the reason why yet, or the length of delay this will cause but are looking into it. We will update you at regular intervals or as soon as any more information is known. If any passengers have any specific questions please see me at x"

And as a bonus - if at a station with nearby stations (such is usually the case within London, or even when you have cases like Bristol Temple Meads / Parkway) then announce those options.

Basically - be helpful. Far too often that just doesn't happen.

 

[EM2]

I know that if my train comes to an unexpected halt this evening at Esher, I can flip open my phone and access numerous rail open data apps to find out what's going on, what's stuck where, and maybe even check Twitter see what witnesses are saying about it "LOL our train forgot to stop at Woking now we have to get a taxi LOL #bants". I know more than the guard, simply because I have a smartphone.

But there's no way that you know that that information is accurate. Maybe that train was never booked to call at Woking, or a 'not to stop' was issued and those customers have made a mistake. You can find out what else is stuck where, but how does that tell you what has actually happened?

 

[EM2]

"We apologise for delay, the xx:xx service to x has experienced an issue between x and x (using timing points where available). We are not sure of the reason why yet, or the length of delay this will cause but are looking into it. We will update you at regular intervals or as soon as any more information is known. If any passengers have any specific questions please see me at x"

Which is what we do.

 

[Joe Paxton]

It's a little disappointing to see the level of obstinacy of some of the rail staff who have contributed to this thread in being unwilling to see the alternative picture from the point of view of passengers. Oh well.

 

[EM2]

It's a little disappointing to see the level of obstinacy of some of the rail staff who have contributed to this thread in being unwilling to see the alternative picture from the point of view of passengers. Oh well.

Do you think that staff aren't often passengers too? We can't tell you what we don't know.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Which is what we do.

Not reliably in my experience.
Sure you will get the staff that are amazing and go above and beyond. But you also get the staff who will literally just announce "the xx train to x is delayed" (so no more than what the automated systems can do) and nothing more.

 

[EM2]

By the way:
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.../live-m62-closed-birghouse-eastbound-12862186

The M62 has been closed eastbound due a police incident [sic].

The motorway is currently closed between junctions 25 for Brighouse and 26 for Chain Bar.

Traffic is currently backing up all the way to Ainley Top and the closure will affect any motorists heading across the Pennines this afternoon.

Emergency services at currently at the scene.

Follow the latest updates here.

 

[rebmcr]

It's a little disappointing to see the level of obstinacy of some of the rail staff who have contributed to this thread in being unwilling to see the alternative picture from the point of view of passengers. Oh well.

Agreed. Normally the criticism of staff on these forums is completely out-of-line and totally unfounded, but in this thread it has been thoroughly earned!

Insisting that the meaning of jargon like "operating incident" is known to the public, and not viewed as a vague excuse, is why TfL gets much better perception scores than NR & TOCs. They have no reluctance to use phrases like "an issue currently under investigation".

 

[AlterEgo]

But there's no way that you know that that information is accurate. Maybe that train was never booked to call at Woking, or a 'not to stop' was issued and those customers have made a mistake. You can find out what else is stuck where, but how does that tell you what has actually happened?

You're picking holes in my example rather than picking up on the general principle.

If my train comes to a halt and I'm told there is an operational incident, and I flick my phone open and see loads of people on Twitter saying their train didn't stop, and then I see on RTT that a train has apparently failed to stop at a booked call, I can't see anything else untoward, then I can make reasonable assumptions about what has happened. This is not about apportioning blame, or delay minutes, but simply being aware of the situation.

If the train was never booked to call, and passengers made a mistake, then pulled the cord, it'd be "passenger action/disruptive passengers", not an operational incident.

You can keep trying to justify why the railway should give the bare minimum of information but it has been evidentially shown that passengers do not appreciate this approach and they are increasingly looking elsewhere for information. That is the reality - another chip, chip away at the reasons staff on the railway have value.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Do you think that staff aren't often passengers too? We can't tell you what we don't know.

I'd prefer to know that you don't know - or don't know anything yet - than it being cloaked in the mysterious phrase "operational incident".

 

[EM2]

You're picking holes in my example rather than picking up on the general principle.

If my train comes to a halt and I'm told there is an operational incident, and I flick my phone open and see loads of people on Twitter saying their train didn't stop, and then I see on RTT that a train has apparently failed to stop at a booked call, I can't see anything else untoward, then I can make reasonable assumptions about what has happened. This is not about apportioning blame, or delay minutes, but simply being aware of the situation.

If the train was never booked to call, and passengers made a mistake, then pulled the cord, it'd be "passenger action/disruptive passengers", not an operational incident.

You can keep trying to justify why the railway should give the bare minimum of information but it has been evidentially shown that passengers do not appreciate this approach and they are increasingly looking elsewhere for information. That is the reality - another chip, chip away at the reasons staff on the railway have value.

But I thought we all wanted facts, not assumptions?
Why did the train not make the booked call? Maybe the driver get a laser pen shone in their eyes and was distracted? Maybe the signaller routed it wrongly?
And that missed stop may not be the cause of the operational incident at all.
Doors opened wrong side on a different service? Service stopped short? Train too long for the platform it was signalled into?

 

[GB]

Agreed. Normally the criticism of staff on these forums is completely out-of-line and totally unfounded, but in this thread it has been thoroughly earned!

Earned because they dare to disagree with your (and others) assertions?