Err, no. It's not.
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"Operational incident" between Barnham and Havant 03/04
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Err, no. It's not.
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Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
LOL that's a good one
You can have all the signals in the world, but if the driver ignores them...
I think that this is right. The passenger needs to know how long the delay is likely to be so that they know whether or not to make alternative arrangements. Not knowing what the 'operational incident' is gives no clue. If it is deemed to be an 'operating incident', it would be useful if this could be followed by 'trains are unlikely to be moving for another 60 minutes' or whatever to allow passengers to make that choice.
I would have thought a majority of passengers are quite happy with Operating Incident, and roughly how long the delay might be,they would be none the wiser if it was a track fault, signal fault, Xing failure. which oddly I think comes under 'Operating' ! (and an incident), maybe it should be changed to "Operating Difficulties" that covers it quite well
I can only speak for myself, but as a passenger I don't find "operating incident" very satisfying. If I'm delayed it's nice to have a vague idea why, as it affects my perspective on the delay:
- if it's a person hit by a train, my annoyance at the delay will be mitigated by sympathy for the people involved
- if it's some sort of equipment/infrastructure failure, I can chalk it up to "stuff happens". If it appears to be a common recurring problem I can ask the TOC what they're doing about it.
- if it's human error, I can chalk it up to "stuff happens". If it appears to be a common recurring problem I can ask the TOC what they're doing about it.
- if it's passengers messing about, I can have a comforting grumble about society going to the dogs.
Etc.
"Operating incident" doesn't really help with any of that, and I'm reasonably confident that I'm not unusual in my desire for information. Sure, knowing the reason for the problem won't get me home any quicker, but as humans, when we're thwarted it helps to know why.
To be honest, I think that those of you claiming that "you only need to know how long the delay is" are being somewhat glib - if I tell you that the water supply to your home is going to be cut off tomorrow for the day, are you going to passively accept that or would you at least like to know why?
BestWestern
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'Operating incident' doesn't cover a fatality or passengers messing about. There are separate 'names' given for that. If it's an operating incident, it means somebody has cocked up or the infrastructure has gone titsup. It is likely the specifics may not be known until some time afterwards (when the affected passengers are long gone). Hence, operating incident it is. I'm unsure what people are asking for really, if specifics aren't known yet by the professionals you're going to have a hard time giving details to passengers.
Fair point! I would argue that if "operating incident" is vague and woolly to me, it's probably similarly unhelpful to most passengers. So perhaps it's an issue of terminology. If the TOC genuinely doesn't know what's going on, then "vague and woolly" is OK as long as it's replaced by something more concrete when more information is acquired.
If more information is already available, I'd like to have it presented to me in suitably digestible terms. So if a driver has run a red light, then some kind of "safety alerts have been activated" message would be helpful (and would reassure me that the safety mechanisms are working - this is a good thing!). If it's because the TOC has screwed up its rota, I'd like to see a "crew not available" message. Basically, "something's gone wrong" is fine when nobody knows what it actually is that's gone wrong, but I'd like more info when it's available.
WelshBluebird
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See, that is part of the problem. To most people, "Operating incident" sounds like an incredibly vague phrase that means nothing. So in most peoples minds, it could cover those things, or it may not.
Its quite a rare thing for traffic news to say Police Incident; most generally when you get that, its a crime scene, someone on a roof or whatever. And more often than not, the force dealing will be tweeting about it fairly quickly anyway unless there is a specific security concern not to, and will more than likely also be all over the local news / social media in minutes as the public will usually be in close proximity.
Either way, "Police Incident" gives a distinct message that the road is closed and the cops are all over it and you wont get through.
The similar "operating incident" the railway use doesnt give any particular message, most of the time there wont be any Joe Public around to fill in the blanks and it apparently covers so many diverse situations that it could range from a 2 minute delay to waiting for Bustitution and a few more hours wondering why youre stuck where you are.
I really am struggling to understand why certain rail industry forum members are being so glib about the effect such non-information dressed up as keeping passengers informed has on people who will be finding the whole affair quite inconvenient to their days plans.
If I was to go about closing roads without giving a detailed reason and causing untold disruption to said rail staff forum members journeys, I should think they would be as miffed. Or maybe not; who knows.
BestWestern
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What we are failing to grasp here, despite it being mentioned numerous times, is that sometimes the 'specific information' that is being demanded just isn't there. Again, as has been pointed out, even internal staff systems will state 'operating incident', other than the detailed incident log which is restricted to authorised users. The log will contain only the immediate reports of roughly was has taken place. Often, that information is vague. If a train has been involved in a SPAD, it takes a good few minutes to go through the procedure, the paperwork, to establish is the Driver is fit to move the train, where he can be met for relief and if there is somebody else available to take the train onwards. A SPAD also requires investigation. It may not even be a SPAD. That conclusion is not always immediate.
I've been on board during two SPADs, one was due to Driver error and one was absolutely not the Driver's fault in any way shape or form. In neither case would it have been prudent to announce what had just happened to a trainload of passengers. If it isn't appropriate to tell those who are on the train itself, it's very unlikely that the same info will be given to those on the platform. Also put yourself in the position of either Driver. Would you want to drive a train into a platform full of people who've all just been told that you might have just made the most serious error you could ever make?
An 'operating incident' means "something has gone wrong, and there will be some disruption". There is absolutely an argument for giving as much info as possible about the potential impact and delay, but I really don't see how the precise specifics of exactly what just happened, Air Crash Investigation style, are of any tangible benefit to those being delayed, other than for purposes of voyeurism.
I've been on board during two SPADs, one was due to Driver error and one was absolutely not the Driver's fault in any way shape or form. In neither case would it have been prudent to announce what had just happened to a trainload of passengers. If it isn't appropriate to tell those who are on the train itself, it's very unlikely that the same info will be given to those on the platform. Also put yourself in the position of either Driver. Would you want to drive a train into a platform full of people who've all just been told that you might have just made the most serious error you could ever make?
An 'operating incident' means "something has gone wrong, and there will be some disruption". There is absolutely an argument for giving as much info as possible about the potential impact and delay, but I really don't see how the precise specifics of exactly what just happened, Air Crash Investigation style, are of any tangible benefit to those being delayed, other than for purposes of voyeurism.
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Chris M
Member
And as has been mentioned every time this is brought up, if you don't have the information then say you don't know. Be honest.
Oh for crying out loud would you please actually listen to everybody who has said time and time again that nobody is asking for precise specifics. What we want is a plain English summary of the immediate cause and a best guess about the likely impact to our journeys. What we do not want are non-explanations that purport to say something but actually do not.
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nom de guerre
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This.
Control emails in these situations are typically entitled - you've guessed it - 'operating incident'. There is usually a reference to the train/rolling stock/location involved, but no more detail regarding the nature of the incident itself.
The Control Log (usually circulated in the early hours of the following day) will give more detail, but often, the most I (a signaller at a large box) will see 'live' is... 'operating incident'.
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EM2
Established Member
We don't know. At the time of the incident, we honestly, truthfully, don't know.
We don't know what's happened, we don't know how it's happened, we don't know why it's happened, and we don't know how long it will take to get back to normal.
Would you rather hear that?
Seems so.
Although something tells me that the most vocal in this thread would not be happy with that.
I think there are very few incidents where literally nothing is known. Can you give an example where literally nothing is known? I will quite happily provide a plain English explanation!
I think it's fine to say that there is no estimate at present for a solution, and at present there is no estimate as to the length of delay, if that genuinely is the case.
BestWestern
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"Say you don't know"? What terminology would you like to be used for that, which is somehow better than 'operating incident'?
For crying out loud indeed. Please re-read the plethora of posts explaining, time and again, the reason why information on 'the immediate cause' is often neither available nor appropriate.
Chris M
Member
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Chris M
Member
duplicate post
EM2
Established Member
'Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to St Pancras International. We'd like to apologise for the delay in the departure of the 13:00 East Midlands Trains service to Corby. We don't know why.'
Likewise, I can't wait to read more about rail staff thinking that people questioning the industry's love of "operational incident" is about trying to get at front-line staff somehow.
EM2
Established Member
I could give you dozens! But bear in mind I am at a station, not on a train. So when a customer asks why their train is late, and I have received no information, or even notification, when I say I know nothing, I know nothing.
Ah right, so this isn't about "operational incident" any more then, is it? It's about the time lag between control realising a problem, it being paged out, and staff picking that up. That happens all the time.
But still, please do provide an example of an operational incident where literally nothing is known.
andythebrave
Member
I've heard a few operating incident announcements in my many years and it never ceases to cause annoyance. To my, lay, mind it tells me nothing at all. Rephrasing to something's gone wrong, there's going to be a delay and we'll let you know more as soon as we do would curb any such vexation.
WelshBluebird
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Then say those things in the announcements! At least those words actually mean something. Whereas, as a few people including myself has said, "operating incident" is essentially meaningless.
Because "operating incident" is seen as a meaningless phrase that people think is just being used to fob them off.
How about "We apologise for delay, we are not sure of the cause yet but are looking into it. We will update you as soon as any more information is known."
Much better than "sorry we are being delayed by an operational incident".
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'Something has gone wrong' and 'there may be disruption' are just as meaningless, surely? What are they telling you that 'operational incident' doesn't?
The key here is not the terminology, in an ideal world people need to know how long they will be delayed for so they can make alternative plans if necessary. If they had this information, the terminology would be a moot point.
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Trying to think of when saying something other than an 'Operating Incident" tells you any more than explaining the meaning of a 'track failure', which I can't, Operating problem/incident/issue covers it.
Suppose they could say a SPAR if one happened, but 95% would be bemused and at a loss of what that meant
If there is a major incident, after the initial issues surrounding that, which can take some time, more detailed info IS put out,
could say track fault, but that does not convey any more meaning to most people. think they used to say 'fatality' but they were stopped as it was too distressful for some passengers !
whatever the cause as long as they say roughly how long it may take, it makes no odds
Suppose they could say a SPAR if one happened, but 95% would be bemused and at a loss of what that meant
If there is a major incident, after the initial issues surrounding that, which can take some time, more detailed info IS put out,
could say track fault, but that does not convey any more meaning to most people. think they used to say 'fatality' but they were stopped as it was too distressful for some passengers !
whatever the cause as long as they say roughly how long it may take, it makes no odds
WelshBluebird
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It is the perception that matters. "Operational incident" gives the impression that something has gone wrong, you have no idea why, and instead of being honest you are just fobbing the passenger off. No different in the actual meaning. All the difference in how the passenger feels.
But 'something has gone wrong' also means something has gone wrong! If you are told that something has gone wrong, you still have no idea why and should feel no different to being told there was an 'operational incident'. Neither terminology will make you get home any quicker either.
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