Last week my train was delayed due to a staffing issue. My concern as with 99% of those affected was when I as going to get to my destination (I had an important appointment) not what the detailed reason for the staffing issue was. Detailed reasons for delays are for industry professionals only - not for trainspotters or cranks.
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"Operational incident" between Barnham and Havant 03/04
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Actually that's complete and utter rubbish. An operational incident could be a Cat B or C SPAD, a near miss where the driver is unfit to continue, or a whole host of other reasons by which a member of rail staff has not ballsed up.
Wrong attitude.
This discussion was had a little while ago on here. Paying customers do have a right to know why their service isn't being delivered, unless there is a compelling reason to withhold that information.
The whole discussion from last time is here: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=137040
Cliveblackpool
Member
'Operational incident' sounds so naff lol! ...In this incident-
Crew shortage /waiting for a crew etc! Which is 100% true.
bb21
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The truth definitely lies somewhere in between.
There are areas where the industry can, and probably should, be more transparent about, but meanwhile there are also those that should definitely be kept away from the general public, especially where blame is attached and the cause is far from being definitive, or where it drops a member of staff in the brown stuff so that they are not open to possible uninformed judgement and/or abuse by the general public.
"Operational incident" is one of those things that straddle across this pretty thick line, as certain examples under that umbrella the industry can probably be more open about without going into too much detail. Crew shortage is probably one of those things that should be explained to the general public, and I think most TOCs do these days. Cat A SPAD is definitely not one.
Transparency is a funny old thing. It contributes towards building customer confidence, but at the same time, there is definitely a balance to be struck.
How many of the general travelling public actually understand the term SPAR or SPAD or even SSDE. WSDR, TPWS intervention, TPWS Overspeed, etc etc. Even SPAR got questions a lot when it was first posted on this forum. Generic, umbrella terms, are understandable by most.
a_c_skinner
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As we all pay for the railway in fares and taxes there is a legitimate public interest in disclosing information. That it might be disciplinary is not a legitimate reason to conceal it, were it for example a crime committed in another area these are reported, a recent assault in Croyden is on the news, that is certain to lead to sanctions. The operation of Southern is especially of public interest and has been for some time. The reason these things are not in the papers/on telly isn't because there isn't a public interest, it is because not enough people are interested.
People on here shouldn't be expected to breach their duties as employees, but the TOCs should make this information available. It isn't good enough to say that as someone doesn't need to know the information should be withheld.
If I had put up with a year or more of disruption on Southern I would think after spending a lot of time on a delayed train that we should be told in some detail why.
Andrew
People on here shouldn't be expected to breach their duties as employees, but the TOCs should make this information available. It isn't good enough to say that as someone doesn't need to know the information should be withheld.
If I had put up with a year or more of disruption on Southern I would think after spending a lot of time on a delayed train that we should be told in some detail why.
Andrew
Nobody is suggesting bombarding them with acronyms.
BestWestern
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Announcing to the travelling public that a train has passed a red signal is not ideal. Some people worry more than others about that sort of thing, and may well have issues continuing their journey. So, 'Operational incident' it is. The incident was at Nutbourne.
The railway speaks in acronyms. If people want honesty and full transparency then that what should be given. The next stage will be that the railway is still avoiding full honesty.
Saying its a Train protection warning system activation is just as meaningless as a TPWS activation.
My point is that people generally don't understand anyway. Generics work well, specifics tend to lead to more confusion.
bb21
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You can always speak directly to the company seeking the information you require. If no satisfactory response were forthcoming, you could always try your MP.
If it could lead to a member of staff being unfairly targetted by the general public, it would be.
Disciplinary matters are private in general, unless there is a very good reason why disclosing such information would be in the public interest, in which case I am sure relevant regulatory body would get involved.
GW43125
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I do not wish to restart the preceding arguments, but sometimes a little goes a long way.
For example, a while back I was heading to St Albans on a fast from St Pancras, when we pulled up at Kentish Town and the doors opened. The driver took 20 seconds to say to us "a train in front near Hendon has had a fire alarm, and we are being held here until they can establish how serious it is. I have released the doors in the meantime if you want to get some fresh air or make alternative arrangements. I'll shout when we're about to go". 20 seconds but left a few people much happier. Thankfully it turned out to be a false alarm.
Similarly I've been stuck outside Teddington once for 25 mins because (and I found this out after the incident) a 455 couldn't get interlock. Nothing from the guard except the "we're being held here and I don't know why, I'll let you know" every 3 minutes. It's a sad state of affairs when I could find out more on SWT's website than the guard knew.
For example, a while back I was heading to St Albans on a fast from St Pancras, when we pulled up at Kentish Town and the doors opened. The driver took 20 seconds to say to us "a train in front near Hendon has had a fire alarm, and we are being held here until they can establish how serious it is. I have released the doors in the meantime if you want to get some fresh air or make alternative arrangements. I'll shout when we're about to go". 20 seconds but left a few people much happier. Thankfully it turned out to be a false alarm.
Similarly I've been stuck outside Teddington once for 25 mins because (and I found this out after the incident) a 455 couldn't get interlock. Nothing from the guard except the "we're being held here and I don't know why, I'll let you know" every 3 minutes. It's a sad state of affairs when I could find out more on SWT's website than the guard knew.
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221129
Established Member
They dont have a right at all. It's just noseyness. People that need to know will know. What difference will knowing that it was a SPAD or a TPWS activation make to a passenger? The end result is still the same.
a_c_skinner
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"If it could lead to a member of staff being unfairly targetted by the general public, it would be."
We don't extend this protection to people awaiting prosecution in the criminal courts so I fail to see why that should be a privilege of working on the railway. Perhaps announcements on the train itself should be a little tempered though, mind you imprudent disclosure don't seem likely from railway staff.
I don't need to apply to my MP or make a FOI request to find out a lot of things that are low grade news, so I'm sorry I am not won over. We don't live in a police state after all.
We don't extend this protection to people awaiting prosecution in the criminal courts so I fail to see why that should be a privilege of working on the railway. Perhaps announcements on the train itself should be a little tempered though, mind you imprudent disclosure don't seem likely from railway staff.
I don't need to apply to my MP or make a FOI request to find out a lot of things that are low grade news, so I'm sorry I am not won over. We don't live in a police state after all.
agree ! lol
Too much information is given out these days, they have said 'Opertaional Incident' that is also how its treated internally and its good enough for them !
It should be good enough for no railway staff, who really have no need to know the intimate details.
bb21
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Facing criminal prosecution? What are you on about? How can you even start to draw parallels between the two?
cjmillsnun
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I'm sorry but it is. There is a thing called the Data Protection Act. Someone's disciplinary record counts as sensitive personal information. I assure you if a company releases this they will be for the high jump.
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Agree wholeheartedly with you sir.
Which IS one and the same thing, next thing they will asking what was wrong with the signal / set of points / track circuit, why did it fail, who should lose their job over it, as it made them an hour late, what colour was the wire that came adrift / broke, or what specific relay failed "I need to know for my delay and repay " !
See the thread I liked to upthread for the whole discussion. You do not need to give acronyms to give a basic explanation for the delay. You use plain English.
It's only the railway which is so very precious about giving out even scant details when things have gone wrong. They'll happily tell you if the engine is bust or the landing gear needing repair while waiting for Ryanair to get you to Dublin.
Both could very easily be right. A point failure can cause a signal fault, a signal fault could cause a points fault.
This is why giving out more info is fighting a loosing battle. As swills says, one and the same but it looks like someone is lying.
'operating incident' IS plain English.
If 'This train is delayed due to activation of a safety system' Someone will still say that is hiding what actually happened 'activation of a safety system' is just as generic as 'operating incident'
Why it's a convenience store chain isn't it?
PHILIPE
Veteran Member
Supposing the cause actually said "Passed signal at danger" and somebody goes around shouting that some fool of a driver has passed signal at danger, put yourself in the shoes of that driver if it got back to his ears.
And then consider that they may not have been at fault!
Llanigraham
On Moderation
No, gives you no rights at all.
TOCs or Network Rail will give you the information THEY think you need.
Llanigraham
On Moderation
Good God, what are you on about?
HarleyDavidson
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Mods sorry but I have to get this off my chest.
a_c skinner, I don't know who the hell you think you are, but just because you pay a pittance of a fare, that's if you pay one at all, doesn't entitle you to have any access to any confidential information regarding any train service.
You're not entitled to know who's driving the train, where they're from, what their history is etc, etc etc.
As others have said the DPA comes into play with any personal information and that includes employees employment records, the only time selected parts of it become available are if any incident becomes a criminal investigation when all the legal formalities are completed and even then it's kept in court and is most certainly not available for you to splash about on social media, the press or any other form of transmission.
If you don't like it well that's tough titty. There's enough backstabbers out there without you adding to the fray and I'm sick & tired of devious individuals like you trying to put the knife in and score "brownie points".
Perhaps the moderation team would like to forward your email address to me so I can do some delving into your employee record, personal details and so on. Got any skeletons in your cupboard?
Oh by the way, before you start having a go at people, I strongly suggest that you go back to school & learn basic spelling, grammar and geography, because you can't spell!
a_c skinner, I don't know who the hell you think you are, but just because you pay a pittance of a fare, that's if you pay one at all, doesn't entitle you to have any access to any confidential information regarding any train service.
You're not entitled to know who's driving the train, where they're from, what their history is etc, etc etc.
As others have said the DPA comes into play with any personal information and that includes employees employment records, the only time selected parts of it become available are if any incident becomes a criminal investigation when all the legal formalities are completed and even then it's kept in court and is most certainly not available for you to splash about on social media, the press or any other form of transmission.
If you don't like it well that's tough titty. There's enough backstabbers out there without you adding to the fray and I'm sick & tired of devious individuals like you trying to put the knife in and score "brownie points".
Perhaps the moderation team would like to forward your email address to me so I can do some delving into your employee record, personal details and so on. Got any skeletons in your cupboard?
Oh by the way, before you start having a go at people, I strongly suggest that you go back to school & learn basic spelling, grammar and geography, because you can't spell!
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