Don't think so - think you will find they have forced air ventilation which is not the same thing and why almost every window has a drop down hopper, albeit not particularly user friendly.
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opening windows on trains
- Thread starter martina
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Don't think so - think you will find they have forced air ventilation which is not the same thing and why almost every window has a drop down hopper, albeit not particularly user friendly.
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RailUK Forums
I've heard these claims, that the old trains wasted energy by having opening windows, and that aircon etc uses 'hardly any power' but the simple facts are that the new trains use a lot MORE power than the old trains did. The new trains are also slower, overall. If anyone disagrees, I ask you this: why was such a huge amount of money spent on upgrading the power supplies in the SWT area, and why did they introduce a new, slower timetable, in around 2005?
The new EMUs are less environmental friendly than the old ones in terms of running costs, and the journey times are longer due to increased dwell times.
Air conditioning is not environmentally friendly and takes a lot of power and resources to run.
The new EMUs are less environmental friendly than the old ones in terms of running costs, and the journey times are longer due to increased dwell times.
Air conditioning is not environmentally friendly and takes a lot of power and resources to run.
Vulcan
Member
I'm not an expert on EMUs, not being from around EMU land, but arn't they longer then they used to be? wouldn't that be a reason for improving power supply?
My best illustration of why I share yorkie's doubts on this is the Belfast > Dublin line schedule.
In 1990 when I was started studying in NI, the standard NIR Enterprise set used on the 15:00 Belfast > Dublin was formed of a 2,450 HP 111 class GM locomotive with 8 Mk IIb coaches. This loading was increased to 11 cars on Fridays.
The track was largely bull head rail on wooden sleepers, probably mostly dating from GNR days. Semaphore signalling was in use for well over half the route length. The 15:00 train made four intermediate stops (plus an extra one at Botanic on Fridays, when the train was longer than usual). Included in these stops were a 6 minute customs examination at Dundalk. The line speed on the whole NIR system then was 70 mph. On Irish Rail it was 75 mph max everywhere except the Cork main line.
The journey time in 1990 for this train was 2 hr 15 min for a 113.5 mile journey. Timings were easily kept, even on Fridays with the extra coaches and stop.
Today the trains are formed of a 3,200 hp 201 class locomotive, on fixed push-pull rakes of 7 air-conditioned De Dietrich coaches. True, a DD coach is probably heavier than a Mk IIb, but I doubt that 7 DDs are heavier than 11 Mk IIbs. The track and signalling have been completed renewed. The line speed has been raised to 90 mph for most of the route, although TBF there aren't that many places where this can be exploited. Doing the same four stop pattern, but without the prolonged customs examination anywhere, the journey time for the trip is now 2 hr 5 mins.
Taking into account the customs stop, this is a mere 5 minute acceleration for all the improvements listed above. What's using all that extra power those locos have at their disposal I wonder?
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12 car EMUs have been the norm on the Southern Region at peak times all my life.
In 1990 when I was started studying in NI, the standard NIR Enterprise set used on the 15:00 Belfast > Dublin was formed of a 2,450 HP 111 class GM locomotive with 8 Mk IIb coaches. This loading was increased to 11 cars on Fridays.
The track was largely bull head rail on wooden sleepers, probably mostly dating from GNR days. Semaphore signalling was in use for well over half the route length. The 15:00 train made four intermediate stops (plus an extra one at Botanic on Fridays, when the train was longer than usual). Included in these stops were a 6 minute customs examination at Dundalk. The line speed on the whole NIR system then was 70 mph. On Irish Rail it was 75 mph max everywhere except the Cork main line.
The journey time in 1990 for this train was 2 hr 15 min for a 113.5 mile journey. Timings were easily kept, even on Fridays with the extra coaches and stop.
Today the trains are formed of a 3,200 hp 201 class locomotive, on fixed push-pull rakes of 7 air-conditioned De Dietrich coaches. True, a DD coach is probably heavier than a Mk IIb, but I doubt that 7 DDs are heavier than 11 Mk IIbs. The track and signalling have been completed renewed. The line speed has been raised to 90 mph for most of the route, although TBF there aren't that many places where this can be exploited. Doing the same four stop pattern, but without the prolonged customs examination anywhere, the journey time for the trip is now 2 hr 5 mins.
Taking into account the customs stop, this is a mere 5 minute acceleration for all the improvements listed above. What's using all that extra power those locos have at their disposal I wonder?
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12 car EMUs have been the norm on the Southern Region at peak times all my life.
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No, they aren't, but it may be that over time more trains operate as 2 or 3 EMUs together than they did, simply because of increased passenger demand. But the power upgrade programme was because the new EMUs require a lot more electricity. I believe the Desiros stil operate at less than full power (can anyone confirm?) as the last I heard it was going to cost too much to fully upgrade all the substations.
Goldfish62
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Aircon is a necessity if rail is to be made an attractive alternative to the car. Having used the hideous VEPs for a decade, and now 458s and 450s for me it's no contest - the new trains are far more comfortable in both summer and winter.
New trains do use more power because they are too heavy (particularly Desiros) - aircon plays small part in this. The 376s are not air-conditioned (and as a result people complain about the heat in the summer), but are no lighter or less power hungry than other new EMUs. However, maintenance costs are lower and the traction motors need hardly any maintenance. Indeed, reliability is now around that of the slammers, and whereas when slammers failed that tended to be it, a reboot of the TMS, incurring only a few minutes delay is often all that is needed to get new trains moving again.
SWT introduced a new timetable because their old one did not work - with slammers.
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Thanks for the clarification.
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The downside of air conditioning is that smells linger! I have a very sensitive nose, and on boarding a train it takes a bit of time to get used to the smell of prefume/aftershave, food, beer, and the toilet (in some cases!)!
I can see the logic of this argument outside the south east and certain other very congested areas, but I can't see that it stacks up on commuter services in places where using the car is a very unattractive alternative indeed.
Goldfish62
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So us commuters should be expected to boil because we have no choice?
The counter argument is that the trains get so packed, with consequent heat generation, that aircon is vital on urban stock.
It's been pointless being able to open the windows lately because the air outside has been warm, everytime you walk past an open window on an HST you get blasted by hot air.
The effects of open windows on the HST's are minimised by the internal carriage doors although it still puts the A/C under pressure making it harder to cool the carriage. If the A/C is not working correctly in a carriage opening the window just now makes little to no difference other than maybe allowing some fresh (hot) air in.
Not had any overly hot MK4's recently, most seem to be blowing Arctic winds!
The effects of open windows on the HST's are minimised by the internal carriage doors although it still puts the A/C under pressure making it harder to cool the carriage. If the A/C is not working correctly in a carriage opening the window just now makes little to no difference other than maybe allowing some fresh (hot) air in.
Not had any overly hot MK4's recently, most seem to be blowing Arctic winds!
So us commuters should be expected to boil because we have no choice?
Essentially yes. And if railways were exposed to true commercial logic, rather than receiving bottomless subsidies, this is exactly what would happen. Although back in the real world I don't recall any major news stories of people dying left, right and centre of heat exhaustion in EPB days.
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334's do not have air con for the saloon, heating and ventilation only. The driving cabs have air conditioning.
Oh please, yet more Southern commuters whining about slammers. You should try commuting on some of the trains we have to travel on up here then you'd have something to whinge about.
A VEP is a palace on wheels frankly.
O L Leigh
Established Member
The power upgrades are not proof that modern trains are less efficient than the slammers they replaced. The fact of the matter is the the electrical systems on a slammer is effecively "dumb" and, therefore, more tolerant of voltage drops. However, the newer stock with all it's whizz-bang systems and computer control is less tolerant of drops in the voltage. If the TMS sensed the voltage drop too far it would shut the unit down to protect the onboard systems.
In addition, a slower timetable masks a number of other factors not automatically related to power consumption and/or performance.
O L Leigh
Vulcan
Member
Is this yet another stab at Pacers? :roll:
Trains up here in the North very rarely run as full as trains around London and the South, and when they do yeah its uncomfortable, but at least doesn't often happen. London commuter trains tend to run full and standing during each rush hour. If you have to endure that every day, air conditioning is a must to keep the paying
For example longer dwell times as everyone has to wait twice as long to get out since they don't have a door to hand.
Personally I'd rather be on a train that doesn't have to turn itself off at the drop of a hat to save it's computers.
Really ?
You've obviously not been on the 17:32 Leeds - Sheffield via Cass very often then.
Take it as a stab at the Pacers if you wish (and they are IMO the most cramped and uncomfortable trains on the network).
But the fact remains that out of all the trains I've used in my six years of commuting, the high density 308 slammers were by far the most comfortable pleasent journey I've had, followed closely by the 150's, then the 153's and finally the 14*** series.
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O L Leigh
Established Member
The problem is that 750V isn't very many to be playing with. It's unfortunate, but modern trains don't run very well on a pre-war electrification system.
O L Leigh
O L Leigh
Probably true. Although I remember experiencing just this problem in a Eurostar on the East Coast main line due to ice on the cable. Funnily enough I ended up missing the first leg of the Sussex Slammer railtour :cry:
O L Leigh
Established Member
The Cl360's didn't much like the 25kV AC to start off with either. A former FGE driver of my acquaintance told me that a Siemens engineer complained that "Ze electrizity iz too dirty", by which I think he meant that it wasn't a perfect sine wave at 50Hz as he expected it to be. I think a number of parameters needed to be amended to stop the Cl360's being too finicky and "sitting down" unexpectedly.
The GNER Eurostars were a pain in the backside too. The current draw that they required was massive and could cause problems for other trains. One of my instructors at Hornsey had taken a brake handling train out from Peterborough with a load of trainees. They hadn't gone very far when he became concerned that the unit might have been faulty because it was dog slow, so he'd arranged a fault-finding stop at Huntingdon. Just as he'd got off the blower to the signaller a GNER Eurostar went screaming past and through the next neutral section, whereupon all the power returned and the unit ran as normal.
O L Leigh
The GNER Eurostars were a pain in the backside too. The current draw that they required was massive and could cause problems for other trains. One of my instructors at Hornsey had taken a brake handling train out from Peterborough with a load of trainees. They hadn't gone very far when he became concerned that the unit might have been faulty because it was dog slow, so he'd arranged a fault-finding stop at Huntingdon. Just as he'd got off the blower to the signaller a GNER Eurostar went screaming past and through the next neutral section, whereupon all the power returned and the unit ran as normal.
O L Leigh
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Failed Unit
Established Member
You could do that all on a standard super saver return as well.
If you want to do east coast it is a little more difficult.
Edinburgh - Dunbar (322)
Dunbar - Morpeth (sorry I think this can only be done by an air-conditioned train).
Morpeth - Newcastle (142)
Newcastle - Middlesbrough (142)
Middlesbrough - York (sorry air-conn again)
York - Selby (156)
Selby - Leeds (156)
Leeds - Sheffield (156)
Sheffield - Lincoln (153)
Lincoln - Peterborough (142)
Peterborough - London (317)
I think that is all permitted on an Edinburgh - London SSR
Vulcan
Member
True, but I have been on many a busy train up here, on our variety of DMUs, and 333s. I have also been on rush hour commuter trains through London in non-aircon units, as well as in the newer Siemens and Bombardier units with AC. We really don't have it bad compared to London commuters in none air con stock. At least in the newer trains, while it may be just as busy and it takes a bit longer to get on and off because of the fewer doors, the fact they are nice and cool inside even when theyre stood still and theres no rain is definately a bonus.
Also a point your forgetting, Air conditioning allows the train to stay cool when it's full and standing and its raining outside. nobody has the windows open when its raining in, and consequently it gets warm inside from everyone's body heat and the windows all steam up and then its even more uncomfortable.
Well yes, thats probably true.
I do get annoyed when people start slagging off the VEPs though. I just don't understand it - even in the rush hour when squashed up against someone they weren't that bad. No more uncomfortable than being squashed up in most more modern non-air con trains. And any other time, they were frankly a pleasure to travel on.
I take your point about the damp moist hot thing though. I've had that quite often on the 14** and 15** stock.
Goldfish62
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Sorry - must beg to differ - IMHO horrible trains, which were outdated when they were introduced.
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Why are you being personal? Please desist.
Fluorescent lighting perhaps 20-50W per tube.. lit up signage? Not aware of that, besides glow-in-dark safety stickers now being fitted. LEDs on CIS; virtually nothing.. a few watts per screen? Speakers.. maybe a little, but only on for a VERY small time.. power doors; well I guess they're not optional.. CCTV; probably not much per camera either.
Many new trains now use LED lights, which may be 2-3W per bulb, although they're not yet of a brightness that is good enough to be without alternative lighting (IMO; having seen the vestibules on a NXEC HST that has them by the doors).
I am sure the air resistance of having the windows open can't be good for the power consumption of the engines - and in a modern car, aircon is probably a tiny increase in power consumption over the MPG lost by having the windows or sunroof open. Clearly the only way to save energy would be to keep the windows shut AND not use aircon or even fans.
I also agree that lots of noise will put people off, as it just helps prove the theory that trains (and public transport in general) is dirty, noisy and slow. I do agree that a 365 going along at 100mph does down out noise, but when you go in and out of tunnels you do wish the train was sealed!
Not least one of the tunnels before Potters Bar, going northbound, where the train will draw in so much air that the carriages can fill with the smell (well, more than just the smell!) of an overflowing toilet retention tank from a Mallard that has recently gone through and hadn't been empted. Believe me, when you notice and realise what it is (most people are oblivious) then you'll want the windows well and truly sealed!
Anyone commuting in London on rolling stock without aircon, especially on the tube or buses, is well used to getting sweaty and dreading any delay that makes the train/tube/bus stand still when things really heat up. And also, we all know that an open window just draws in air that may well be as hot, or hotter, than inside. Technically keeping the windows closed, and having heat-reflecting film, may keep the inside cooler but who would do that? Then you have the heat from people, which I think people forget about and can't realise is linked to why an air-conditioned train can suddenly get so hot when it is actually working fine - but has probably been set to be more economical than suddenly blowing ice cold air at maximum speed.
The only way to cool is to be in the flow of the moving air, which makes you feel cooler. If you had some water and dampened your clothing you'd probably feel even cooler - but you'd have the same result with the windows closed, your own personal battery powered fan, and extractors to remove the heat inside. Or, you have air conditioning which solves the whole problem and works nicely in the winter too - stopping the train misting up (and the dampness no doubt causing problems to other things inside the carriage that don't like moisture).
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The 378's are one of the most annoying 'modern' trains. About 70% of the trips I make on them are done without A/C, (in the last 3 weeks). The A/C is barely ever working, and the guard never opens the windows if it not working, it is almost worse than the underground at 'peak' time.
313103
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I couldnt agree more class313, I am one of those Guards who doesnt open the windows on a 378. Even when ive been on one where the wndows are open it doesnt actually work too well as when the train stops the heat from underneath raises and enters the train.
With regards the windows we are instructed not to open them unless it is an absolute emergency! I opened the windows on one unit and informed our control that i had opned them as the outside temp was 29* C and was about 33*C inside. I was told in no uncertain terms that the windows are to locked up no matter what the temp is as it affects the rest of the air con through the train.
So i have decided that should the temp be unbearable in the future i will terminate the train and get everybody off, send the unit to Willesden and let Bombardier sort the problem out. When our controlthen ask why i have done that i will say i am doing my job as a Guard in sofar as looking after there welfare and safety.
WE have many issues regrding the 378s however it would not be right for me to put on here what they are but AC is one.
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