Open Return Ticket Refused? Ordered to pay again.

[GhibliFan]

Hi all,

In a spot of bother with an Open (Off-peak) Return train ticket that I have. It was refused by a conductor on a Transport for Wales service at Haverfordwest about two hours ago.

It's a £32.50 ticket valid between Milford Haven (South Wales) and Cardiff Bay. This was purchased on 21 October, and is supposed to be valid until 20 November. The outward journey to Milford Haven was made on the 21 October, however I started to make the return journey on 4 November.

I have always had the assumption that an Open Return Ticket allows you to split your journey up at any time and you can get off at stations that are within the route specified and continue your journey on another day. I know that you cannot use the same ticket between two stations more than once.

On 4 November I used this ticket between Milford Haven [edited 17:35, 12/11/18] and Johnston, which no questions asked. Johnston is just one stop away from Milford Haven [edited 17:36, 12/11/18]. The conductor on that train circled the 20 November expiry date and wrote '4/11' underneath it. Didn't think anything of that.

On 8 November I went a stop further and caught a train between Johnston and Haverfordwest. Another conductor wrote on my ticket during this journey, this time putting a squiggle on the left under the station names and writing 8/11 across the middle.

However today I've decided to complete more of the journey, this time towards Carmarthen.

Boarded the train at Haverfordwest and a rather stern conductor downright refused to accept my ticket, stating that as it has already been used, he could not accept it and that I would need to pay my fare towards Carmarthen, or get off the train at Whitland.

I must admit, I was rather upset and confused by this and did politely explain to him that I thought it would be perfectly valid since only the section between Milford Haven and Haverfordwest had been used.

He then said that I was "completely wrong", and that he "has worked on the trains for 20 years and knows the rules".

I stressed that on previous occasions with a ticket purchased two months ago I had no trouble using an open return over an extended period of time (within of course its expiry) and over several stops - and have never been challenged about it.

I was slightly irate but polite and never raised my voice or swear at any time - but explained to him I wanted to check this on the National Rail Enquiries website. He left, before coming back with his Samsung phone facing me, stating that he was now recording the situation on video.

I found this extremely invasive and unnecessary. After all, I am under the assumption that my ticket is valid and I was calm and collected at all times, albeit a little cheesed off.

I showed him a web page on my phone from NRE, which he then replied, "Sorry, I won't read that. You'll need to pay your fare or leave the service at the next stop".

I extremely reluctantly paid the £10.10 fare using Trainline on my phone, showed him the moving ticket, and off he went.

I'm sorry for the long post but I'm so bewildered by all of this.

I honestly have always assumed that when you have an Open Return Ticket, valid for a month, you can get off and realight as many times as you liked - as long as you do NOT make the same step of any part of the journey twice. Which I haven't done of course. The section of the route I have used is shown below. The direction of the return journey is east.

Many thanks for any advice.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was going to say "yes this is fine", but this is an 8A SVR (an unusual case), and the public facing definition of that:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/8A

...prohibits break of journey in both directions. This was a subject of a few recent threads in here, as it is a recent change for TOCs to be allowed to do this.

Therefore in this specific case, the guard was correct, and indeed you got away with the first "extra" trip for which it wasn't valid either.

Indeed I'm surprised he didn't agree to reading the NRE page you showed him, as he could have pointed out where you were wrong while doing so!

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

On 4 November I used this ticket between Haverfordwest and Johnston, which no questions asked. Johnston is just one stop away from Haverfordwest. The conductor on that train circled the 20 November expiry date and wrote '4/11' underneath it. Didn't think anything of that.

On 8 November I went a stop further and caught a train between Johnston and Haverfordwest. Another conductor wrote on my ticket during this journey, this time putting a squiggle on the left under the station names and writing 8/11 across the middle.

I think there may be a little bit of confusion around what travel happened, so I'll try to summarise my understanding here.

You had this ticket, issued to start on 21 October.

You travelled from Cardiff Bay to Milford Haven on 21 October.

You travelled from Milford Haven to Johnston on 4 November.

You travelled from Johnston to Haverfordwest on 8 November.

You tried to travel from Haverfordwest to Carmarthen on 12 November (today).

Is that correct?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I was going to say "yes this is fine", but this is an 8A SVR (an unusual case), and the public facing definition of that:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/8A

...prohibits break of journey in both directions. This was a subject of a few recent threads in here, as it is a recent change for TOCs to be allowed to do this.

Therefore in this specific case, the guard was correct, and indeed you got away with the first "extra" trip for which it wasn't valid either.

Indeed I'm surprised he didn't agree to reading the NRE page you showed him, as he could have pointed out where you were wrong while doing so!

However, such restrictions must be advised to the passenger at the time of purchase. Very few purchase points indeed would advise you of the break of journey restrictions at all. If they are not advised to the passenger, they cannot be enforced - and since the guard has no way of knowing whether or not the passenger was advised of the restrictions at the time of purchase, they must give the benefit of the doubt.

Indeed, even TfW's site (and all other Trainline derivatives) states the following for Off-Peak Returns' conditions (emphasis mine):

BREAK OF JOURNEY
Break of journey is permitted on the return direction of Off-Peak tickets, and is generally permitted on the outward direction unless prohibited for the journey that you are making. If you intend to break your outward journey, please contact us to check if it is permitted. You can always break your journey where necessary to change train.

To refuse a ticket in this context, assuming the validity has not expired yet because of the way it has been used, is highly incorrect.

 

[GhibliFan]

I think there may be a little bit of confusion around what travel happened, so I'll try to summarise my understanding here.

You had this ticket, issued to start on 21 October.

You travelled from Cardiff Bay to Milford Haven on 21 October.

You travelled from Milford Haven to Johnston on 4 November.

You travelled from Johnston to Haverfordwest on 8 November.

You tried to travel from Haverfordwest to Carmarthen on 12 November (today).

Is that correct?

Yes that's correct.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Yes that's correct.

And where did you buy your ticket?

 

[GhibliFan]

Cardiff Bay

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Cardiff Bay

At the ticket office? Did they inform you of any restrictions on breaking your journey?

 

[swt_passenger]

Cardiff Bay

As described above, your journeys on 4th and 8th of November doubled back? Did you actually make a progressive journey from Milford Haven intending to eventually get back to Cardiff Bay? I.E. this was the return portion, having already finished the complete outward journey on 21st Oct?

Might be worth editing your first post if I’ve surmised your actual travel correctly.

 

[furlong]

Just curious, but as this stands out as an unusual pattern of travel, what was the reason for your journey, breaking it at so many places over an extended period of time?

 

[GhibliFan]

At the ticket office? Did they inform you of any restrictions on breaking your journey?

The station doesn't have a ticket office, only a machine.

 

[GhibliFan]

Just curious, but as this stands out as an unusual pattern of travel, what was the reason for your journey, breaking it at so many places over an extended period of time?

I'm a mystery shopper by trade and travel over long distances for work. Most of the time I manage to get lifts, but on occasions where I can't, I use the remaining stops left on an Open Return Ticket to get me home.

I also plan my visits carefully so that they eventually head back eastwards so I'm not using a journey leg twice.

 

[GhibliFan]

As described above, your journeys on 4th and 8th of November doubled back? Did you actually make a progressive journey from Milford Haven intending to eventually get back to Cardiff Bay? I.E. this was the return portion, having already finished the complete outward journey on 21st Oct?

Might be worth editing your first post if I’ve surmised your actual travel correctly.

My outward journey (valid for one day) was made in its entirety on the day of purchase.

I got a lift home the same day.

I got a lift to Milford Haven on the 4th, and a train back to Johnston where I completed further work.

My partner then picked me up from Johnston as I didn't fancy waiting 2 hours for a train.

 

[swt_passenger]

My outward journey (valid for one day) was made in its entirety on the day of purchase.

I got a lift home the same day.

I got a lift to Milford Haven on the 4th, and a train back to Johnston where I completed further work.

My partner then picked me up from Johnston as I didn't fancy waiting 2 hours for a train.

Then you need to edit your post because that’s not what you wrote.

 

[Silverdale]

Then you need to edit your post because that’s not what you wrote.

I did have to read the OP twice, and carefully so as not to construe that "valid between Milford Haven (South Wales) and Cardiff Bay" necessarily implied that it was a return from Milford Haven to Cardiff Bay, but having done that, the meaning was clear enough for me to understand.

 

[yorksrob]

I was going to say "yes this is fine", but this is an 8A SVR (an unusual case), and the public facing definition of that:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/8A

...prohibits break of journey in both directions. This was a subject of a few recent threads in here, as it is a recent change for TOCs to be allowed to do this.

Therefore in this specific case, the guard was correct, and indeed you got away with the first "extra" trip for which it wasn't valid either.

Indeed I'm surprised he didn't agree to reading the NRE page you showed him, as he could have pointed out where you were wrong while doing so!

I suppose this new restriction is an example of the 'simplification' of fares that the TOC's say that they want to introduce.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suppose this new restriction is an example of the 'simplification' of fares that the TOC's say that they want to introduce.

A proper simplification would get rid of 8A and 3A (pointless non-restrictions) and just make those tickets Anytime Returns.

 

[Starmill]

My outward journey (valid for one day) was made in its entirety on the day of purchase.

I got a lift home the same day.

I got a lift to Milford Haven on the 4th, and a train back to Johnston where I completed further work.

My partner then picked me up from Johnston as I didn't fancy waiting 2 hours for a train.

Then you need to edit your post because that’s not what you wrote.

On 4 November I used this ticket between Haverfordwest and Johnston, which no questions asked. Johnston is just one stop away from Haverfordwest. The conductor on that train circled the 20 November expiry date and wrote '4/11' underneath it. Didn't think anything of that.

On 8 November I went a stop further and caught a train between Johnston and Haverfordwest. Another conductor wrote on my ticket during this journey, this time putting a squiggle on the left under the station names and writing 8/11 across the middle.

However today I've decided to complete more of the journey, this time towards Carmarthen.

It looks like GhibliFan's posts are saying the same thing to me? Am I missing something?

"has worked on the trains for 20 years and knows the rules".

In my experience, anyone who needs to say this is acting incorrectly. Nobody who is well experienced in their job needs to state the number of years they have been doing it, because they will be unlikely to make mistakes (or if they do, they will react positively to correct them).

 

[yorksrob]

A proper simplification would get rid of 8A and 3A (pointless non-restrictions) and just make those tickets Anytime Returns.

Quite.

 

[swt_passenger]

I did have to read the OP twice, and carefully so as not to construe that "valid between Milford Haven (South Wales) and Cardiff Bay" necessarily implied that it was a return from Milford Haven to Cardiff Bay, but having done that, the meaning was clear enough for me to understand.

Happy with direction of travel, ie the return. That’s why I think he’s mistakenly written Haverfordwest in the paragraph about the 4th, when he meant Milford Haven.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Well, given what you have said, the conductor was in the wrong. If they were not sure whether you had been advised of the restrictions before buying the ticket, they should have given you the benefit of the doubt. So wrong on two counts.

I agree with @Starmill: anyone who is left justifying their actions solely on the number of years they have been doing something that way, is highly likely to be doing it wrong!

Sadly there are still far too many of these kinds of dinosaurs out there in the rail industry: they contribute towards its poor public image and quite honestly, if they are not willing to change their attitudes immediately, they should be made to find another job (at the very least, a non-public facing one within the rail industry).

As for practical advice, I would write to TfW, enclosing a photo of your ticket, an explanation of the travel you did and a screenshot (or copy of) the TrainLine booking confirmation for the new ticket. Tell them that you expect them to reimburse you the ticket which they incorrectly made you purchase, and ask them what they propose to do to remedy the conductor's unacceptable attitude and treatment of you.

 

[GhibliFan]

I do apologise if my wording wasn't that easy to follow in my original post. I must admit, I did write that while a little angry.

In case of any doubt;

I purchased an Off-peak Open Return in October, with the outward journey heading towards Milford Haven. The originating station was Cardiff Bay. The outward journey ticket was valid for the one day only.

The return part of the ticket is (or I assumed was) valid until 20 November. I began my return journey from Milford Haven on the 4th, stopped off at only one station, and got a lift back later that day from Johnston.

On the 8th, I went one further stop from Johnston to Haverfordwest

Today, I wanted to use some remaining stops and headed for Carmarthen from Haverfordwest, a section of the journey I haven't used before. This is when I experienced the difficulty with the conductor.

--

I do have to add here that I'm very grateful for the replies that I have had so far. It's very much appreciated.

 

[GhibliFan]

I have now edited my post. I now realise how you were all confused and I do apologise for that. Milford Haven was indeed the originating point of my return travel.

Johnston is one stop after Milford Haven

Haverfordwest is one stop after Johnston

 

[Gareth Marston]

At the ticket office? Did they inform you of any restrictions on breaking your journey?

National Rail conditions say "make available" not verbally inform. They also state that some off peak returns don't allow break of journey. I'm on I pad at moment so not easy to cut and paste but National Rail conditions are not going to be a source of redress on this occasion.

The 8a's essentially allow you peak time travel for off peak prices with loss of certain flexibility like break of journey. I've heard of people doing breaks on them esp away from Wales and Borders where there just assumed to be ordinary SVR's.

Most TfW Conductors do show a fair bit of discretion and providing your not too far off piste so to speak are ok about certain things but if my understanding of the OP's situation correct he was trying to get a third day's local travel in west wales off a return portion that already had two days marked on it.

 

[Silverdale]

I think he’s mistakenly written Haverfordwest in the paragraph about the 4th, when he meant Milford Haven.

I think he has, too. But still I got the intended meaning as it was also stated that the return journey was started on the 4th (which implied; from Milford Haven) and also that the return portion had been checked and date marked on that journey to Johnston (which implied; the same).

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

National Rail conditions say "make available" not verbally inform. They also state that some off peak returns don't allow break of journey. I'm on I pad at moment so not easy to cut and paste but National Rail conditions are not going to be a source of redress on this occasion.

The 8a's essentially allow you peak time travel for off peak prices with loss of certain flexibility like break of journey. I've heard of people doing breaks on them esp away from Wales and Borders where there just assumed to be ordinary SVR's.

Most TfW Conductors do show a fair bit of discretion and providing your not too far off piste so to speak are ok about certain things but if my understanding of the OP's situation correct he was trying to get a third day's local travel in west wales off a return portion that already had two days marked on it.

But several sources of booking (as exemplified above) explicitly tell you that break of journey is permitted on the return portion. So the information provided at the time of booking is important.

 

[GhibliFan]

On the Trainline app, if I were to purchase the same ticket that I currently have in paper form it still explicitly states that breaking a jouney is permitted.

Hugely misleading and needs to change.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

On the Trainline app, if I were to purchase the same ticket that I currently have in paper form it still explicitly states that breaking a jouney is permitted.

Hugely misleading and needs to change. View attachment 55285 View attachment 55286

It's not misleading, really - if you are told that break of journey is permitted for the return portion when you book your ticket, that is a term of the contract. It is then a breach of contract - and a serious and fundamental one at that - for TfW to reject that ticket and to tortiously demand an additional fare.

What it is, however, is confusing and inconsistent, as it means that the usefulness of your ticket depends on where you buy it.

 

[_toommm_]

I would admit that most open returns do allow BOJ, especially on the return journey. While technically the guard did their job by selling a new ticket, the way he went about it was not right - the self-gratification was entirely unnecessary, going on borderline arrogant and abusive, so I would definitely follow that up with TfW. If you bought it from a TVM and it didn't advise you to lookup the restrictions with the appropriate restriction code (in this case, http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/8A), then I would also follow that up with TfW, and would politely ask to be recompensed for the fare paid as you weren't privy to the lack of BOJ restriction.

Out of course, I would personally follow it up with TheTrainLine, as if you previously saw the ticket on their app and made the decision to buy said ticket based on the information provided to you, then it could be argued that be a breach of contract/false advertising.

 

[GhibliFan]

I would admit that most open returns do allow BOJ, especially on the return journey. While technically the guard did their job by selling a new ticket, the way he went about it was not right - the self-gratification was entirely unnecessary, going on borderline arrogant and abusive, so I would definitely follow that up with TfW. If you bought it from a TVM and it didn't advise you to lookup the restrictions with the appropriate restriction code, then I would also follow that up with TfW, and would politely ask to be recompensed for the fare paid as you weren't privy to the lack of BOJ restriction.

To be honest, what riled me most was him recording me on his phone. That really annoyed me and felt it was so unnecessary