Open Access

[STKKK46]

Hi all. Over the past few days, I have come up with a very very ambitious plan for an Open Access company. It is not one I'd be able to sort out myself, and would never really expect it to be taken on, but I was wondering what would be needed, and what passenger numbers would be like, as it's just something I'm quite interested in.

The route I would propose would be Stratford-Upon-Avon/Leamington Spa to Westbury/Taunton. There is already a stumbling block maybe in the fact that it wouldn't serve London. The route would include the barely used Hatton Junction between Claverdon and Lapworth, before going through platform 3 Dorridge, to link the trains together. From Dorridge, it would call Solihull, Birmingham New Street, University, Cheltenham Spa, Bristol Parkway (Trains Divide). The Westbury portion would then go on to Filton Abbey Wood, Keynsham, Oldfield Park, Bath Spa, Trowbridge and Westbury. Taunton would call Bristol Temple Meads, Weston Super Mare, Taunton. From my rough calculations, it would reduce journey times quite effectively, even between Leamington and Bristol/Bath, where passengers could go to Reading and change. Another factor in a service like this would be the amount of short journeys made, e.g Extra Leamington to Dorridge, Stratford to Solihull, New Street to University, New Street to Bath Spa, Keynsham & Oldfield Park to Bath & Westbury. If you were going to start this route, what Units would you use, and how many trains a day would you run? Would you include the join/splits at Dorridge and Bristol Parkway?

Finally, yes I am from Dorridge, so the bias is there to be seen, and Keynsham is also quite a regular place for me to visit.

 

[the sniper]

For a start, you're not going to get any paths through New Street and even if you could, you wouldn't be able to call there. As for possible short journeys, that wouldn't be allowed either, you'd have to call at stations around Birmingham and pick up or drop off only.

This is just an idea for fun, isn't it?

 

[STKKK46]

For a start, you're not going to get any paths through New Street and even if you could, you wouldn't be able to call there. As for possible short journeys, that wouldn't be allowed either, you'd have to call at stations around Birmingham and pick up or drop off only.

This is just an idea for fun, isn't it?

I wouldn't quite say for fun, but it's just something I've taken an interest in, hope that's not a problem? That does make sense I suppose, which would cancel out the whole route idea really? Unless it could go through Stourbridge, Kidderminster and Worcester, which would add a lot of extra time on.

 

[Ivo]

Why doesn't the train split at Temple Meads? Surely that would make more sense? Also, if the route is that long I really can't see any sense in stopping at Oldfield Park (unless you hate Worst Group that is ). Keynsham you can probably get away with, buif you stop there you would have to serve Bradford-on-Avon as well.

As for units? In my view, that's pretty obvious. A 3-car long-distance unit whose class starts in "1" and ends in "0".

 

[91101]

As part of a business plan I constructed for a possible open access company a few years ago, I looked at non-London flows focusing on holiday travel to and from the South Coast via the East Midlands, and to be honest from what I found the financials just didnt stack up, and this was based on doing everything at lowest possible cost, and what I found were a significant underestimation of track access charges.

The basic plan was a two trips a day service Blackpool - Derby - MML - Poole serving some crticial points in the middle. Assuming the optimal paths the journey time end to end was a little over 7 hours, however, when we looked at where the whitespace was in the timetable, the end to end journey ended up being a little over 15hours!

 

[STKKK46]

With not splitting at Temple Meads, the thinking was more in that, there are plenty of trains linking The North to there as it is, and it would mean a shorter journey time from BPW to KYN. But as you say, it would make more sense, especially as it would give KYN a better link to BRI. Oldfield Park is suggested due to the generally poor service it recieves, along with Keynsham, so was thinking to link them with Bath. As for the unit, I was thinking more 158? There is more likelihood of having a First Class Section on those. Plus also, if there was to be a path through New Street, a 150 would not be allowed to take the Lickey Incline?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As part of a business plan I constructed for a possible open access company a few years ago, I looked at non-London flows focusing on holiday travel to and from the South Coast via the East Midlands, and to be honest from what I found the financials just didnt stack up, and this was based on doing everything at lowest possible cost, and what I found were a significant underestimation of track access charges.

The basic plan was a two trips a day service Blackpool - Derby - MML - Poole serving some crticial points in the middle. Assuming the optimal paths the journey time end to end was a little over 7 hours, however, when we looked at where the whitespace was in the timetable, the end to end journey ended up being a little over 15hours!

That's crazy! I have used every source available to me to find that if there was a path through BHM, the journey time from DDG to BTH would only be around 2 hrs 30, which IMO is pretty decent.
As I did mention though, I wouldn't be able to set this up myself anyway, and I couldn't be certain of the call for such a route. Just a little idea that I want to see what people would say about it, just like other routes that could be utilised...like a Oxford or Leamington Spa to Nuneaton service, integrating the current Cov to Nuneaton services maybe.

 

[Aictos]

91101 does have some experience in this area not as much as The Planner granted but he still knows his stuff.

As to open access operators, I would love to see a Newcastle to Great Yarmouth or Norwich to Blackpool North service, the first service actually used to run under BR but I know I don't have the experience or capital to even ponder it.

Good to see him deliver a post however rare that might be!!!

 

[The Planner]

That's crazy! I have used every source available to me to find that if there was a path through BHM, the journey time from DDG to BTH would only be around 2 hrs 30, which IMO is pretty decent.

Finding paths up the Leamington corridor would be tough once Evergreen 3 kicks in. You would also encounter the wrath of LM and Chiltern as they wont take kindly to someone trying to run extra Leamington/Dorridge to Brum services. Then XC would steam in as you would be competing to Brizzle. Stops at New St based on that would be impossible.

What you really need are the mythical Bordesley chords. You could then try to run to Moor St, pick up only, then down the Camp Hills. You need 90 or 100mph stock as a starter as 75mph units just wouldnt be a goer. Being stuck behind a cross city also becomes less of a problem. However, seeing as Cheltenham and Bristol Parkway are half hourly from Brum, Cheltenham 3 per hour if you count the Cardiffs I just cant see the point of it. If you could run Moor St - Parkway non stop possibly.

If you are desperate to serve Westbury, try something a bit different. New St -Swindon non-stop, maybe a Stroud and Kemble stop, reverse, then Westbury via Melksham.

 

[Simon Poole]

Sounds Intresting

i always like to see an new train company stopping at one of the Rugeley Stations, an Stafford to Derby would be good if they make an new platform at Lichfield Trent Valley when the evelated line connects between the WCML & the High Level, just an fun idea

 

[Big Chris]

As for units? In my view, that's pretty obvious. A 3-car long-distance unit whose class starts in "1" and ends in "0".

A 180 with two cars missing?

 

[Ivo]

Ha ha, very good

The way OA operators seem to be going, that wouldn't surprise me

 

[rail-britain]

I have come up with a very very ambitious plan for an Open Access company
I was wondering what would be needed, and what passenger numbers would be like
The route I would propose would be Stratford-Upon-Avon / Leamington Spa to Westbury / Taunton

Why would these services be routed via Birmingham?
Is there enough passenger flow and/or any point?
There are already plenty of operators / services between Birmingham - Bristol / Taunton, Birmingham - Reading, and Reading - Taunton
A direct service via Didcot and Newbury would make more sense
I am not familiar with the track layout at Didcot so a reverse at Reading may be required
Finally, can Wetbury cope with terminating services?

I would prioritise services that reduce the number of changes for passengers :
Stratford-Upon-Avon - Westbury
Stratford-Upon-Avon - Taunton
Leamington Spa - Westbury
Leamington Spa - Taunton
Personally, I would operate the service for the entire length; Stratford-Upon-Avon - Taunton

The next issue is rolling stock (or the current lack of it)
The journey time would be about 2 to 3 hours
Would the service benefit from having First Class, buffet / restaurant?
Any rolling stock would probably be able to complete three or four services each weekday
There is then the issue of maintenance, as none of these destinations are near to a major depot
Therefore the final daily or one day a week the service could be extended nearer to a depot, such as Exeter

Finally, the service could link in nicely with those of WSR at Leamington Spa for connections to/from Wrexham
Finally, ignore local interests, although they do help with research

what I found were a significant underestimation of track access charges

These are readily available on the Network Rail site
The major issue is trying to work out the rolling stock leasing charges
TS had to remove these from online documents, but the overall cost was included so it is still possible to work out the rough costs

 

[STKKK46]

I'd say every idea that has been added here has basically helped what I intended to do, just to find out how it all works, so cheers.
RE First Class/ Buffet. There would be every intention to have a decent first class service provided, and ideally a buffet too. This would clearly be made difficult if running a 150/158. Would that make a 170 a better shout?
RE via Didcot and Newbury & terminating at Westbury. Westbury would not be an essential point for termination, it came into my head as I was thinking terminating at somewhere like Bath would surely be pretty difficult? Didcot does seem to be a better way of getting round to Bath etc, but not necessarily via Newbury too. If Westbury was counted out, along with Trowbridge and Bradford On Avon, I believe there is a chord at Didcot which avoids the station and could mean Oxford, next stop Swindon? Or a reverse at Didcot could work? If using said chord, from Stratford all the way through to Taunton, there would be no need for any reversing, even at BRI, which would be a bonus to the journey completion time.

 

[rail-britain]

I've been looking closer at the available routes
Yes, it is possible to avoid Didcot however this would mean not calling at Didcot and Reading, plus missing out possible calling points between Reading and Westbury (via Newbury)
However I don't think that is a great loss, as already mentioned there are already existing services between Leamington Spa and Reading

Personally I would try and avoid reversing as much as possible, unless a crew change is necessary

I would therefore operate the services :
Stratford - Leamington - Banbury - Oxford - Swindon - Wetbury - Taunton
This gives a typical journey time of 2:56 (assuming those are the only calling points)

The chances of acquiring any Class 15x or 17x units is between zero and nil
Hence why so many TOCs are currently using LHCS with locos top and tail
However there is more chance of some of these being released from FGW in the near future, albeit Mark 2 coaches
Furthermore there should be several Mk3b DVTs available
At the moment the Class 57/3 locos are not fitted with TDM, but I believe there is good reason for doing so given so many of these locos are now used in top and tail formation, when just a DVT could be used
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Another possible route, that may interest you, with viable passenger flow :
Shrewsbury - Derby
However as discussed above, paths via Birmingham are at a premium
So is there any way this could avoid New Street?

 

[captainbigun]

DVTs all but spoken for and there's no float of TDM kit for a new install.

 

[STKKK46]

Shrewsbury - Crewe - Stoke-On-Trent - Derby (Reverse at Crewe?)
Thats all I can think of avoiding BHM while actually reaching Derby.
As for Stratford to Taunton, would it definitely be beneficial to actually go Swindon - Westbury? Would it not work better as Swindon - Chippenham - Bath - Bristol - Weston - Taunton? IMO Weston would add a lot of custom in the summer months.

 

[rail-britain]

As for Stratford to Taunton, would it definitely be beneficial to actually go Swindon - Westbury?
Would it not work better as Swindon - Chippenham - Bath - Bristol - Weston - Taunton?
IMO Weston would add a lot of custom in the summer months

I assumed your proposal went :
Oxford - Swindon - Westbury - Taunton
If the proposal actually goes :
Oxford - Swindon - Bristol - Weston - Taunton
This presents competition issues between Swindon and Taunton, plus adding about 30 minutes to the service
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Shrewsbury - Crewe - Stoke-On-Trent - Derby (Reverse at Crewe?)
Thats all I can think of avoiding BHM while actually reaching Derby

I looked at via Tame and Rugeley Trent Valley, but that doesn't look very practical

 

[STKKK46]

Set down only at Swindon and Bristol could counter that? Then after time, like WSMR at Banbury the opportunity could arise to change that?

 

[GingerSte]

Further north a bit. A while ago I did have an idea for a service: London KX - (Peterborough or Grantham) - Doncaster - Tadcaster - Wetherby - Harrogate - Ripon. I would have called my new TOC "White Rose Trains" and used 5 car 222's or possibly 180's. As a piece of marketing, I would set up shop in each of these places and do a beer tasting, to see which locally produced beers could be served on the train!

Obviously there would need to be a good deal of new track laid, but most of the old track beds are still there (notable exceptions include Ripon centre and the connection to the ECML). The cost of reopening these would be kept to a minimum by not needing too much possession work (ie just at the connections to the existing lines). I would also rebuild the line from Cross Gates (east of Leeds CC) to Wetherby for a direct Leeds service aswell.

In the meantime I wouldn't be surprised to see an open access TOC going for the London KX to Lincoln service. They might be able to increase their profits slightly by stopping at some of the places East Coast misses out, eg Huntingdon.

 

[STKKK46]

Something i would like to see introduced on trains such as those of WSMR, Hull Trains etc., would be hand pumped local beers. On the service i've proposed though, the main focus of the company as a whole would be improving links to Stratford, Leamington and Solihull. All i see around LMS is cans of Carlsberg Special Brew though!

 

[Aictos]

Gates (east of Leeds CC) to Wetherby for a direct Leeds service aswell.

In the meantime I wouldn't be surprised to see an open access TOC going for the London KX to Lincoln service. They might be able to increase their profits slightly by stopping at some of the places East Coast misses out, eg Huntingdon.

Calling at Stevenage and Peterborough would be good for me in both directions especially as I believe the new clockface timetable had the paths already for the East Coast Lincolns.

 

[Sapphire Blue]

Something i would like to see introduced on trains such as those of WSMR, Hull Trains etc., would be hand pumped local beers. On the service i've proposed though, the main focus of the company as a whole would be improving links to Stratford, Leamington and Solihull. All i see around LMS is cans of Carlsberg Special Brew though!

Brilliant idea in principle, but:-
Ale has to be racked off out of its cask and into a vessel it can be served from before setting off (movement on the train will cloud the beer with the sediment far too much otherwise)

Keighley & WVR do this on their trains.
(Then you get some CAMRA zealots complaining that
"It isn't real ale any more as it is not served from its brewing cask")

Also the problem of wastage at the end of the life of the beer (about 3/4 days for a 3.7 - 4.0% beer. You have to be sure of selling all 72 pints from a cask or gross profits do not stack up.

No excuse for not selling bottled ale though.

 

[GingerSte]

The beer would have to be bottled, but I don't think this is a problem.

Aren't there any small breweries in the Stratford, Leamington, Banbury area? There must be at least a few with Shakespeare-related puns for names!

(Sorry for dragging the coversation onto beer!)

 

[button_boxer]

One of the stated aims of Marston's new "fast cask" brewing method is to make it possible to serve cask ale in places like trains where traditional casks don't work.

http://www.beer-pages.com/protz/features/fast-cask.htm

 

[STKKK46]

Ah well theres something ive always wondered answered. I know of Purity Brewery in Warks, not sure where. I think it would be a great idea if possible on great western hsts, especially over a weekend, with rugby fans etc. I would say weekend trains for football, but unfortunately us football fans can be trusted in pubs anyway let alone having a few pints on the train.

 

[tbtc]

I believe the new clockface timetable had the paths already for the East Coast Lincolns.

Do you know what speed would be needed to fill these paths?

Could East Coast hire in a 100mph EMU to run a Kings Cross - Newark service every couple of hours to protect the paths and revenue stream?

Wouldn't need to be nine coaches long, but to give Grantham/ Newark the hourly service (alongside the York service)