Open access to freight schedules

[Poggs]

Many of you are enthusiasts with a particular focus on freight trains. Some of you will know about Network Rail's transparency agenda and that freight data isn't included.

I've written a blog post which is probably my final word on freight data and why I don't anticipate it being 'open' any time soon.

http://blog.opentraintimes.com/2012/10/04/on-freight/

On freight

Here are possibly my final words on opening up freight schedules.

Freight schedules are commercially sensitive. Real-time data on freight trains is commercially sensitive. Freight operating companies (FOCs) don’t want the whole world to know about their operations because they’re in competition with other modes of transport – primarily road haulage. This makes the data quite different from passenger TOCs because there’s no outside competition.

I’ve tried to come up with a compelling justification for opening up freight schedules and real-time data, but I’m afraid I simply cannot find one. A few people have been in touch with me with legitimate reasons to analyse freight data – for example, in transport planning to construct bus timetables such that they don’t use level crossings around the time freight is due. However, the vast majority of people are enthusiasts, some of whom think everything should be free and don’t understand that commercial organisations are there to make money, not to service the enthusiast community...

(Click here to read the rest of the article)

 

[Ascot]

It's a shame to hear that, it was very handy using your site as opposed to reading the WTT books. I assume the only way to get the paths is to read the WTT books on Network Rail?

 

[jopsuk]

pay for Freightmaster access?

 

[Tomnick]

I understand, from the other thread, that freighter are excluded from the TD data. That's a shame, as it'd provide a useful and interesting overview of how the 'bigger picture' fits together, without necessarily needing to provide details for those freight trains that might cause commercial upset.

 

[GB]

I understand, from the other thread, that freighter are excluded from the TD data. That's a shame, as it'd provide a useful and interesting overview of how the 'bigger picture' fits together, without necessarily needing to provide details for those freight trains that might cause commercial upset.

I agree. While schedules might be sensitive (even tho you can get them on the net anyway), I don't see whats wrong with showing freight in the TD stepping berths. Even if it was possible to somehow show just a generic TD for freight such as "FRGT" that would have been good but I doubt that is technically possible.

Enthusiast community asides, I think this would have been brilliant for freight train crew both those wanting/needing to know where their train is and for those stuck in loops for example to see what is actually going on around them.

 

[wbbminerals]

Bizarre that it's published in WTTs yet you're not able to publish it. Network Rail logic.

 

[Zoe]

A road haulage company could in theory monitor the feeds and calculate the time the train takes and use that to try and encourage companies to switch their freight haulage to road. Not sure what the issue with empty Motorail vans running back to the depot would be although thinking about it again it could be claimed that the empty freight was late arriving back and that it would be more reliabel to use road.

 

[Poggs]

Bizarre that it's published in WTTs yet you're not able to publish it. Network Rail logic.

Some of the working timetables have some freight paths in them. The working timetables don't show the full picture, and indeed those freight paths could be entirely wrong and replaced with new schedules, or operate over a different route, or just not be used. The WTT doesn't have the daily and weekly changes that come through ITPS and the VSTP schedules that come through TOPS.

I think it's wholly unfair that you refer to "Network Rail logic" for something you don't appear to want to fully understand.

 

[GB]

Would it be possible to somehow convert a freight TD to display something generic so you couldn't identify its working/company but still be able to show it on the train maps?

I have no idea whats actually involved in all this open data stuff so just thinking aloud.

 

[wbbminerals]

Some of the working timetables have some freight paths in them. The working timetables don't show the full picture, and indeed those freight paths could be entirely wrong and replaced with new schedules, or operate over a different route, or just not be used. The WTT doesn't have the daily and weekly changes that come through ITPS and the VSTP schedules that come through TOPS.

I think it's wholly unfair that you refer to "Network Rail logic" for something you don't appear to want to fully understand.

I understand there aren't STPs there, yes. I also understand that paths can change. Lots stay the same though, and surely publishing any times is liable to give a 'competitive disadvantage'? :roll: Also if a WTT path was there but not used it would still be on OTT (if it showed freight).

 

[plannerman]

A road haulage company could in theory monitor the feeds and calculate the time the train takes and use that to try and encourage companies to switch their freight haulage to road. Not sure what the issue with empty Motorail vans running back to the depot would be although thinking about it again it could be claimed that the empty freight was late arriving back and that it would be more reliabel to use road.

Sorry, that's a bizarre argument. I've worked in road haulage for twelve years, in a number of roles, and the truth is that road and rail haulage are usually complimentary. To argue that road hauliers would benefit from having access to 'secret' freight timetables is odd, as most freight involves being carried to and from the railhead by road anyway. In fact one road haulier I worked for used to charter trains to carry freight on long cross-country legs.

We live on a pretty small island. Journey times from A to B aren't difficult to work out, and in any case freight which is as time-critical as you suggest would generally be roaded throughout anyway, to avoid modal shift delays.

My guess is that freight timetables are of little interest to Joe Public, and publishing them would be a cost to NR with no revenue to gain from it. It'll be a financial decision, nothing to do with secrecy.

 

[Darandio]

A road haulage company could in theory monitor the feeds and calculate the time the train takes and use that to try and encourage companies to switch their freight haulage to road.

But the information is out there for them anyway. We are hardly talking about something so secretive that would only become a compromise to rail if the information "wasn't out yet". It's already there.

 

[Zoe]

In the early days some of the train time websites included freight and charter data but it was then removed.

 

[Freightmaster]

Some of the working timetables have some freight paths in them. The working timetables don't show the full picture, and indeed those freight paths could be entirely wrong and replaced with new schedules, or operate over a different route, or just not be used. The WTT doesn't have the daily and weekly changes that come through ITPS and the VSTP schedules that come through TOPS.

Exactly!

A couple of weeks ago, I had an email from one of my subscribers advising me
that he was not renewing his subscription to Freightmaster online because the
same information was "now available free of charge in the Network Rail WTTs"

I laughed so hard, I nearly did myself an injury


It's a bit like saying "why should I buy a lawn mower when I could
use a pair of scissors to cut my grass free of charge" :roll:



MARK

 

[Condor7]

I laughed so hard, I nearly did myself an injury

It's a bit like saying "why should I buy a lawn mower when I could
use a pair of scissors to cut my grass free of charge" :roll:

MARK

That made me laugh, a good analogy.

 

[Poggs]

But the information is out there for them anyway. We are hardly talking about something so secretive that would only become a compromise to rail if the information "wasn't out yet". It's already there.

Could I ask that you have this discussion with the FOCs and encourage/convince them to open up their data, please? Discussing it here will end up with a "Surely"-type argument, which won't go anywhere.