Open access Settle Carlisle line

[Acathater]

So long as you are meaning open access in its widest term, that is to say something private that doesn't let the hoi polloi on I don't see why not. I would do a Carlisle - Lancaster - Skipton triangle, 37s at both end, at least £300 a pop, all first class.

Since it's speculative discussion and we're looking to really put the S&C on the map let me indulge in a bit of fantasy too - Maybe you could make it £2500 for a full day doing the route and put exotic spa things on the train like a sauna and hot tub etc. It doesn't seem obvious to me that there's any reason that's impossible - brief back of fag packet maths tells me a mk3 sized hot tub would have similar axle loading to an aggregate hopper. There are a tad of safety things to consider with 70 tonnes of water sloshing around per hot tub coach but they don't feel insurmountable for a sufficiently determined and visionary company (that I will not be investing in) who really wanted to push this through.

Is it an open-air hot tub?

 

[AlastairFraser]

I'm not sure that Merseyrail and the council taxpayers of Liverpool City Region would be keen on requirements for additional subsidy being offloaded onto them!

A modern Merseyrail service provided to those station wouldn't mean increased Merseyrail subsidy, it would mean dramatically increased usage.
The attractiveness of even 2tph through from Upholland direct to Liverpool Central during normal Merseyrail operating hours, as opposed to the sluggish and useless Northern service that exists now, is a completely different proposition.

 

[stevieinselby]

The fact that Northern services are doing a good trade, is much better quality evidence for an opposing view. As is the amount of tickets for the Bradford area to Glasgow on the Blackpool services to Preston. LNER’s fare trial means the market is more ripe than ever.

I believe a Glasgow-Carlisle-Leeds-Nottingham (and maybe onwards to Cambridge) service would do a decent trade.

"The fact that" ... are you sure? They run 8 trains a day, on average ~3 car sets. Apart from an occasional spike in demand for a specific service, they are not usually especially busy. That doesn't indicate a route that has enough demand to justify competing services.

I think it would be difficult politically for anyone to refuse a service over the settle Carlisle. There would be criticism from many sources and massive publicity. And not just from train buffs.

I am sure network rail or whoever would love to get more revenue from the line.

I hope someone from lumo is reading this thread

Comedy Central. It would be the easiest decision in the world to reject a proposal that wouldn't have a cat in hell's chance of paying its way. Very likely that the majority of passengers would be abstracted directly from existing Northern services, which are anyway heavily subsidised. The scope for attracting new passengers is very limited. Continuing to Glasgow might help a little bit but I don't know how much scope there is to accommodate additional trains on that line, and whether they would need to be 110mph+ capable – which would make them expensive to run and would be completely wasted on the 60mph Settle & Carlisle line.

 

[Harpers Tate]

I have often thought that "famous" scenic routes (S&C a prime example) could generate revenue if alongside the functional service there were a heritage-type operation, with rolling stock and perhaps motive power not necessarily antique but nevertheless designed around tourism - in the sense of the journey itself being the destination (as distinct from any of the places served) and so promoted. Perhaps with rolling stock with priority given to the view (see Switzerland as an example). Consider the (seasonal) passenger numbers at, say, Goathland, which if viewed in the same manner as normal places are viewed, is surely a classic basket case.

 

[fishwomp]

As this is a speculative forum article, you could almost imagine a future where a new service runs the length of the country and over major reopened (or saved, i.e. S&C) lines. London, Oxford, Bedford, Derby, Matlock, Manchester, Hellifield, Carlisle, Hawick, Edinburgh. Two trains a day each way maybe? Top notch rolling stock....

Feels more like you could imagine a past - London to Carlisle and Glasgow via Settle and Dumfries .. the Thames Clyde express!

 

[Starmill]

There is very little population between Keighley and Motherwell to serve, and it's a long way. There's a small amount in Skipton and Carlisle, and some negligible amounts elsewhere. Accordingly you'd get some end-to-end between Leeds and Glasgow and very little else.

 

[A S Leib]

There is very little population between Keighley and Motherwell to serve, and it's a long way. There's a small amount in Skipton and Carlisle, and some negligible amounts elsewhere. Accordingly you'd get some end-to-end between Leeds and Glasgow and very little else.

Carlisle's useful for connections, but as Newcastle, Lancaster and Preston (and Carlisle itself) have Leeds and Glasgow services, that doesn't help a Leeds – Glasgow service's case much.

 

[JonathanH]

I have often thought that "famous" scenic routes (S&C a prime example) could generate revenue if alongside the functional service there were a heritage-type operation, with rolling stock and perhaps motive power not necessarily antique but nevertheless designed around tourism - in the sense of the journey itself being the destination (as distinct from any of the places served) and so promoted.

There is already a heritage-type operation on the Settle & Carlisle line, and a number of others, designed around tourism and the journey itself being the destination. One of its key features is the need to bring in people from outside the immediate area, rather than just running between Settle and Carlisle themselves.

 

[Acathater]

A summer-only daily service running Blackpool-Preston-Clitheroe-Carlisle and return might generate some business as a tourist trip.
Everyone seems to forget the S&C connects to Lancashire not just Yorkshire

 

[YorksLad12]

Didn't XC float the idea of a Leeds-Glasgow service a few years ago? Nothing came of it (though I can't remember whether that was pre Covid).

Northern (Northern Spirit... whatever) ran such a service. But only the unit ran through; there was a crew change at Preston, the Scottish leg being run by a Scottish crew.

In the 1990s there was a proposal for a direct Leeds-Windermere service! I mean, I'd have caught it but I've no idea of the route it would have taken.

 

[Lemmy99uk]

Northern (Northern Spirit... whatever) ran such a service. But only the unit ran through; there was a crew change at Preston, the Scottish leg being run by a Scottish crew.

That’s incorrect.

The Northern Spirit service didn’t go to Preston, it had a Northern Leeds Crewe to Carlisle and return, and a Northern Carlisle crew for the Glasgow section.

 

[YorksLad12]

That’s incorrect.

The Northern Spirit service didn’t go to Preston, it had a Northern Leeds Crewe to Carlisle and return, and a Northern Carlisle crew for the Glasgow section.

Ta. I thought Carlisle and wrote Preston.

 

[AlastairFraser]

"The fact that" ... are you sure? They run 8 trains a day, on average ~3 car sets. Apart from an occasional spike in demand for a specific service, they are not usually especially busy. That doesn't indicate a route that has enough demand to justify competing services.

What is proposed is more of an intercity service with a few S&C stops though.
It doesn't really have any connection to the current S&C community railway operation.

There is very little population between Keighley and Motherwell to serve, and it's a long way. There's a small amount in Skipton and Carlisle, and some negligible amounts elsewhere. Accordingly you'd get some end-to-end between Leeds and Glasgow and very little else.

The end to end West Yorks/Craven to western Scotland passengers would be your mainstay though, and there are sizeable populations to connect. The lack of a direct high-quality road route West Yorks to M6 without making a detour all the way up to the A66 at Scotch Corner (unless a decent quality extension to the M65 ending at the A629 Cross Hills/Steeton bypass was built).
That also reminds me that the 150k in the Burnley/Nelson/Colne/Brierfield urban area would be another target market - Blackburn's only 15-30mins off Preston, but the stations in the Burnley and Colne area are 45-75 mins from Avanti services.
The driving/public transport time to Skipton would make interchange onto a west of Scotland service there quite attractive, especially if it was low cost like Lumo, or reasonably priced like GC.

Now, some people might use it to do walking trips to Ribblehead, day trips out from southwestern Scotland etc., but that would only be the secondary purpose of the service.

In the 1990s there was a proposal for a direct Leeds-Windermere service! I mean, I'd have caught it but I've no idea of the route it would have taken.

Presumably Leeds - Skipton - Bentham line - reverse at Lancaster onto WCML - Windermere branch at Oxenholme? The current Leeds to Morecambe services reverse at Lancaster, so it seems to be feasible.

 

[Egg Centric]

Is it an open-air hot tub?

No, fun as that would be there needs to be at least one more passenger than just me. If they did do a train with an outdoor hot tub then I would take up smoking just to have a cigar in it for sure.

Due to the slosh thing I'm envisaging several hot tubs in series anyway; one the whole length of the coach will end up with one end high and dry during any acceleration or deceleration.

I did do a bit of googling and it seems like Marlboro tried to build a train with hot tub(s?) back in the 90s but the crackdown on cigarette promotions meant the thing was never finished, so we've still no idea how well it would work. There are a few trains with baths on though, like Rovos Rail and Shiki Shima so it doesn't feel impossible to do a proper jacuzzi (regardless of whether the economics stacks up)

The economics probably can stack up though once you're talking several thousand pounds, which for some of the most scenic railways in the world might genuinely be doable.

 

[Djgr]

A modern Merseyrail service provided to those station wouldn't mean increased Merseyrail subsidy, it would mean dramatically increased usage.
The attractiveness of even 2tph through from Upholland direct to Liverpool Central during normal Merseyrail operating hours, as opposed to the sluggish and useless Northern service that exists now, is a completely different proposition.

I think that somebody would need to do the maths here but it certainly won't happen without some funding from outside of Liverpool City Region.

The most likely Merseyrail extension is down the Borderlands, as the Welsh Government is both proactive and aware of the ongoing funding obligations that would come with this. (Lancashire and Cheshire authorities not so)

 

[AlastairFraser]

I think that somebody would need to do the maths here but it certainly won't happen without some funding from outside of Liverpool City Region.

Oh I totally agree - perhaps Section 106 on the EP to Helsby section? There's scope for a fair bit of housebuilding in the area, and it wouldn't take much to upgrade the line and stations for a Merseyrail service. Anyway, off topic for S&C

 

[Iskra]

"The fact that" ... are you sure? They run 8 trains a day, on average ~3 car sets. Apart from an occasional spike in demand for a specific service, they are not usually especially busy. That doesn't indicate a route that has enough demand to justify competing services.

The line is reported to have been very busy this year by those who work it, and it’s almost certainly a record year- so, yes, I am fairly sure.

 

[Bald Rick]

Oh I totally agree - perhaps Section 106 on the EP to Helsby section? There's scope for a fair bit of housebuilding in the area, and it wouldn't take much to upgrade the line and stations for a Merseyrail service. Anyway, off topic for S&C

Having done a few S106 deals in my time, there is very little scope for using it to fund the scale fo works necessary for this tyoe of railway project.

 

[YorksLad12]

Presumably Leeds - Skipton - Bentham line - reverse at Lancaster onto WCML - Windermere branch at Oxenholme? The current Leeds to Morecambe services reverse at Lancaster, so it seems to be feasible.

Could be. I was on Leeds Passenger Consultative Committee at the time, but never hung on to the Committee papers.

 

[30907]

Could be. I was on Leeds Passenger Consultative Committee at the time, but never hung on to the Committee papers.

Another possibility (at lest in my crayoning, possibly in reality) would have been a curve from the east end of the (then) Carnforth triangle onto the WCML, allowing a reversal at Carnforth - but Lancaster would have been preferable anyway (especially as the Morecambes didn't call there back then).