Open Access Operator for Newark North Gate

[YorkRailFan]

Seeing as Peterborough will be getting GC as an Open Access Operator, this means that all stations on the ECML between London and York served by LNER (not including branches to Leeds, Hull and Lincoln or smaller stations served by Thameslink/Great Northern only). But the question is, which open Access Operator? I personally think that Hull Trains is the least likely as they already serve Doncaster, Retford and Grantham as well as Stevenage on Sundays. GC could, but they are going to served Peterborough meaning that their already busy trains will get even busier. Lumo could, but a key factor of Lumo's business model is connecting London and Edinburgh as fast as possible as to compete with airlines so stopping at Newark would increase journey times, but it is possible if they see the demand.

 

[HST43257]

Seeing as Peterborough will be getting GC as an Open Access Operator, this means that all stations on the ECML between London and York served by LNER (not including branches to Leeds, Hull and Lincoln or smaller stations served by Thameslink/Great Northern only). But the question is, which open Access Operator? I personally think that Hull Trains is the least likely as they already serve Doncaster, Retford and Grantham as well as Stevenage on Sundays. GC could, but they are going to served Peterborough meaning that their already busy trains will get even busier. Lumo could, but a key factor of Lumo's business model is connecting London and Edinburgh as fast as possible as to compete with airlines so stopping at Newark would increase journey times, but it is possible if they see the demand.

No point and no need? Newark has 1tph to Edinburgh, 2tph to London, and I hardly imagine the people of Fiskerton are dying to park in Newark to visit Hartlepool, Mirfield or Howden

 

[YorkRailFan]

No point and no need? Newark has 1tph to Edinburgh, 2tph to London, and I hardly imagine the people of Fiskerton are dying to park in Newark to visit Hartlepool, Mirfield or Howden

I've been to Howden many times and let's just say there's not a lot to do. But Bradford could be a potential market or Sunderland when a football match is on.

 

[Neptune]

or Sunderland when a football match is on.

Are there loads of Sunderland fans in Newark? If there aren’t then a daily service seems rather overkill, or straw grasping.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Where has this come from? Who's said that Newark North Gate is getting an open access operator, and more to the point, what justification is there for one?

 

[JonathanH]

Who's said that Newark North Gate is getting an open access operator, and more to the point, what justification is there for one?

The original poster's premise was that Newark was 'missing out' by not having any open access operator stop trains there, and that therefore one of the existing operators should look to stop some of their trains there. It wasn't a proposal with any grounding.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The original poster's premise was that Newark was 'missing out' by not having any open access operator, and that therefore one of the existing operators should look to stop some of their trains there. It wasn't a proposal with any grounding.

Seems to me a case of looking for problems that don't exist, really. If we're going by the ideology that every single LNER station on the ECML needs to have a competing service to London, there really will be extraction eventually.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Are there loads of Sunderland fans in Newark? If there aren’t then a daily service seems rather overkill, or straw grasping.

Depends who the other team is, you'd be surprised how many people travel from Manchester to Sunderland for a football game, changing at York to get GC.

 

[Neptune]

So if the Manchester supporters branch of Sunderland FC can change trains at York then why can’t the Newark supporters branch?

 

[YorkRailFan]

So if the Manchester supporters branch of Sunderland FC can change trains at York then why can’t the Newark supporters branch?

I was thinking more about Newark getting more competition for London services in particular. Plus, Manchester has more York services than Newark does.

 

[30907]

I was thinking more about Newark getting more competition for London services in particular. Plus, Manchester has more York services than Newark does.

Peterborough is getting the odd GC train because it happens to be looped there already, so despite it being primarily abstractive revenue-wise it is being allowed.
Retford and Grantham were bagged early on by HT because that combination passed the test. No idea why Newark didn't.

 

[Neptune]

I was thinking more about Newark getting more competition for London services in particular. Plus, Manchester has more York services than Newark does.

But you mentioned football fans going from Newark to Sunderland so I’m assuming you must know that there is a major market for it or you wouldn’t have mentioned it in the first place.

 

[YorkRailFan]

But you mentioned football fans going from Newark to Sunderland so I’m assuming you must know that there is a major market for it or you wouldn’t have mentioned it in the first place.

Well I assume, I'm not a football fan. Plus, I know people from Lincoln who would like an Open Access Operator at Newark as the LNER services to Lincoln aren't too reliable apparently.

 

[swt_passenger]

Seeing as Peterborough will be getting GC as an Open Access Operator, this means that all stations on the ECML between London and York served by LNER (not including branches to Leeds, Hull and Lincoln or smaller stations served by Thameslink/Great Northern only).

That sentence is incomplete, it doesn’t actually suggest anything? Obviously there’s an implication in the thread title, so everyone’s guessed what you meant.

 

[Purple Train]

I've been to Howden many times and let's just say there's not a lot to do. But Bradford could be a potential market or Sunderland when a football match is on.

I've been to Howden many times and there is a lot to do - just none of it anywhere vaguely near the station!

 

[YorkRailFan]

I've been to Howden many times and there is a lot to do - just none of it anywhere vaguely near the station!

The Cathedral and market? Trust me, I've been to the Town many times, I have family there.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Peterborough is getting the odd GC train because it happens to be looped there already, so despite it being primarily abstractive revenue-wise it is being allowed.
Retford and Grantham were bagged early on by HT because that combination passed the test. No idea why Newark didn't.

Newark was never really in Hull Trains plans. With the initial timetable, there was only time for one regular stop at a station between Peterborough and Doncaster. Grantham was chosen because of some business connections towards and at Hull together with the then gaps in the London-Grantham and connections market.

Retford only came about because the first up service had to stop there for an overtaking move and the ORR don’t like trains being held in stations for several minutes with their doors shut. The Retford stops for Hull Trains grew from that just one quite slowly over the years, the Eureka timetable giving them the major boost.

Newark is pretty well served by LNER so I don’t see why any OA operator would want to stop there.

 

[NSE]

Well I assume, I'm not a football fan. Plus, I know people from Lincoln who would like an Open Access Operator at Newark as the LNER services to Lincoln aren't too reliable apparently.

Do people actually want an OAO? Or do people want a reliable service. I’d suggest the later (which is perfectly reasonable), as the vast majority of passengers don’t have a clue what the difference between ‘OAO’ and ‘LNER’.

Football is also a risky market to base a new service on. Football as a whole brings a huge revenue to the industry, that much is clear. But teams don’t play the same fixtures consistently.

 

[Neptune]

Well I assume, I'm not a football fan. Plus, I know people from Lincoln who would like an Open Access Operator at Newark as the LNER services to Lincoln aren't too reliable apparently.

Never assume anything ever. It’s a totally baseless guess and now looks rather silly as you say you have no idea on the subject.

I suspect this Newark idea is nothing more than colouring in a station on a map for with no real reasons given as to why, which is thankfully not how the railway is run.

 

[Purple Train]

The Cathedral and market? Trust me, I've been to the Town many times, I have family there.

I've always enjoyed the gardens, and have spent rather more hours than I'd care to admit wandering around the Minster and area. I'd certainly call it a very interesting place. But I am very boring/easily amused... (delete as appropriate), so my views are almost certainly worthless for anything to base an OAO market on (for instance, one of my bright ideas was for an Open Access operator centred on Manningtree to make it convenient for a wide variety of people to access Flatford Mill)!

With that being said, I would agree that Newark has a good enough service to too many places for an OAO not to be primarily abstractive and/or uneconomic. Though it is basically a parkway for a fairly wide area, the markets northbound are already served by LNER plus connections if needs be, and southbound markets are all served by LNER unless there is a gigantic market from Lincoln to Hertford, which I think is rather unlikely.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Never assume anything ever. It’s a totally baseless guess and now looks rather silly as you say you have no idea on the subject.

I suspect this Newark idea is nothing more than colouring in a station on a map for with no real reasons given as to why, which is thankfully not how the railway is run.

As I said up thread, an Open Access Operator at Newark could get traffic from Lincoln among other destinations. Plus, I never said that GC should stop at Newark, meaning that Sunderland doesn't have to be a destination for this service, but Hull could be, or of course GC could only use the Bradford service.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Nov 2023 ==

I've always enjoyed the gardens, and have spent rather more hours than I'd care to admit wandering around the Minster and area. I'd certainly call it a very interesting place. But I am very boring/easily amused... (delete as appropriate), so my views are almost certainly worthless for anything to base an OAO market on (for instance, one of my bright ideas was for an Open Access operator centred on Manningtree to make it convenient for a wide variety of people to access Flatford Mill)!

With that being said, I would agree that Newark has a good enough service to too many places for an OAO not to be primarily abstractive and/or uneconomic. Though it is basically a parkway for a fairly wide area, the markets northbound are already served by LNER plus connections if needs be, and southbound markets are all served by LNER unless there is a gigantic market from Lincoln to Hertford, which I think is rather unlikely.

I guess GC could make it work for a Bradford service, and perhaps Lumo for Edinburgh but I do doubt that Newark has demand for Hull Trains. I think places that could do with an OAO are the WCML and GWML.

 

[Neptune]

As I said up thread, an Open Access Operator at Newark could get traffic from Lincoln among other destinations. Plus, I never said that GC should stop at Newark, meaning that Sunderland doesn't have to be a destination for this service, but Hull could be, or of course GC could only use the Bradford service.

Sorry but I have been referring to what you said in post 3 (below). These are both GC services so you definitely have suggested GC services to stop there.

But Bradford could be a potential market or Sunderland when a football match is on.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Sorry but I have been referring to what you said in post 3 (below). These are both GC services so you definitely have suggested GC services to stop there.

I was thinking about how Sunderland services are popular when there is a football match, a GC service from Newark could attract those from Lincoln and I would argue as far as Nottingham. But I do think on a regular day, a GC service from Newark to Bradford would be more popular than a GC service from Newark to Sunderland.

 

[NSE]

Yes, but as I mentioned above, football teams don’t play the same fixtures repeatedly. Nottingham fans could use it to go to Sunderland, the following week they could be in London, then stay at home, then midlands, it just isn’t a good idea to base a whole service on.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Yes, but as I mentioned above, football teams don’t play the same fixtures repeatedly. Nottingham fans could use it to go to Sunderland, the following week they could be in London, then stay at home, then midlands, it just isn’t a good idea to base a whole service on.

True, hence why I mentioned that a Bradford service would make more sense on a regular day.

 

[Neptune]

I was thinking about how Sunderland services are popular when there is a football match, a GC service from Newark could attract those from Lincoln and I would argue as far as Nottingham. But I do think on a regular day, a GC service from Newark to Bradford would be more popular than a GC service from Newark to Sunderland.

So by post number 3 you’d drifted away from the thread you’d started about OA services from Newark and were just musing about Sunderland FC’s large crowds? What you were saying was totally irrelevant to the thread?

Is it a case of grasping at Newark for OA for any old reason (any will do, just deviate away and pretend that’s not what was meant when questioned on a particular bit that doesn’t make sense) just because the other stops on the route either get or are getting an OA service? No real basis, just crayoning in a tick to makes the map look tidier?

 

[NSE]

True, hence why I mentioned that a Bradford service would make more sense on a regular day.

Is Bradford really a massive market? I’d argue not. I appreciate that the GC to Bradford stops at more than just Bradford and the Doncaster stop would probably be useful. But for the 4/5 (?) trains a day, is it worth it? I think LNER would have stopped more trains each hour if the market was there.

 

[Neptune]

Is Bradford really a massive market? I’d argue not. I appreciate that the GC to Bradford stops at more than just Bradford and the Doncaster stop would probably be useful. But for the 4/5 (?) trains a day, is it worth it? I think LNER would have stopped more trains each hour if the market was there.

Bear in mind M-F the first GC arrival at BDI is 1400 and the last departure is at 1450 so that’s your day trip market gone (Saturday’s it’s a bit better 1338 - 1529).

 

[JonathanH]

Is Bradford really a massive market?

It is noticeable that, for the greater good, Leeds isn't seen as somewhere that needs off-peak direct connections from Newark by LNER, because the off-peak timetable seeks to provide a combination of distributed loadings, good journey times and connections that are balanced.

Newark gets trains to Edinburgh, London and York instead.

 

[YorkRailFan]

So by post number 3 you’d drifted away from the thread you’d started about OA services from Newark and were just musing about Sunderland FC’s large crowds? What you were saying was totally irrelevant to the thread?

Is it a case of grasping at Newark for OA for any old reason (any will do, just deviate away and pretend that’s not what was meant when questioned on a particular bit that doesn’t make sense) just because the other stops on the route either get or are getting an OA service? No real basis, just crayoning in a tick to makes the map look tidier?

It is not in fact to colour in a dot on a map. It is because I have talked to many people from Newark and Lincoln who said that they would appreciate an OAO to serve Newark (especially people from Lincoln) to compete with LNER and offer more services.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Nov 2023 ==

Is Bradford really a massive market? I’d argue not. I appreciate that the GC to Bradford stops at more than just Bradford and the Doncaster stop would probably be useful. But for the 4/5 (?) trains a day, is it worth it? I think LNER would have stopped more trains each hour if the market was there.

But LNER doesn't serve Bradford frequently meaning that GC could unlock a new market. As well as Halifax, Doncaster and Wakefield either a new or more frequent service to Newark with onward connections to Lincoln and even Nottingham.