Open access on WCML

[telstarbox]

Could there be an open access operator on the West Coast Main Line - perhaps on the London - Manchester corridor? I wondered if that would go down to 2 trains per hour in the future which would release an hourly path.

 

[JonathanH]

Could there be an open access operator on the West Coast Main Line - perhaps on the London - Manchester corridor? I wondered if that would go down to 2 trains per hour in the future which would release an hourly path.

That really isn't the point of freeing up a path.

If the number of trains go down to two per hour, it is because of lack of demand for this route, not to immediately fill it again with open access.

The ORR response to the Grand Union proposal shows that if an open access operator was to reduce the revenue to the DfT's operator, it won't be approved.

 

[Ianno87]

That really isn't the point of freeing up a path.

If the number of trains go down to two per hour, it is because of lack of demand for this route, not to immediately fill it again with open access.

Plus Avanti will still hold access rights for all 3tph.

 

[The Planner]

Are we forgetting Grand Central Blackpool already, or is this specifically Manchester? Not sure how you could ever pass an abstraction test to Manchester.

 

[telstarbox]

Yes I meant the Manchester market specifically. It must be the largest London market without any TOC competition at the moment?

 

[JonathanH]

Yes I meant the Manchester market specifically. It must be the largest London market without any TOC competition at the moment?

Most markets won't have any TOC competition once TOC-only fares are removed.

As it is, there are TOC-only fares from Manchester to London for "TfW / LNR" and "EMR and Connections" as well as Avanti.

 

[EllieAquitrain]

Are we forgetting Grand Central Blackpool already, or is this specifically Manchester? Not sure how you could ever pass an abstraction test to Manchester.

Perhaps the best chance would be to run past Manchester to eg Rochdale (via Warrington?), with some Trent Valley stops like the Blackpool application?

 

[JonathanH]

Perhaps the best chance would be to run past Manchester to eg Rochdale (via Warrington?), with some Trent Valley stops like the Blackpool application?

Why is this even a consideration?

There is no way that could be pathed through Victoria or be platforms at Rochdale. There is also the problem of the wires running out at Victoria.

Even if it were the best chance there is no chance of it happening. A retry on Blackpool would seem most likely but it isn't going to be remotely viable for some time.

 

[EllieAquitrain]

Oh of course, I wouldn't actually support such a service given its impact on the network. I'm just thinking in terms of a hypothetical exercise - how best to make a Manchester Open Access proposal sufficiently non-abstractive.

Why is this even a consideration?

There is no way that could be pathed through Victoria or be platforms at Rochdale. There is also the problem of the wires running out at Victoria.

Even if it were the best chance there is no chance of it happening. A retry on Blackpool would seem most likely but it isn't going to be remotely viable for some time.

 

[GTR fail]

An idea could be a service from Euston to Manchester Airport e.g.
Euston, Watford, Tamworth, Stafford, Crewe, Wilmslow, Manchester Airport

 

[Bletchleyite]

An idea could be a service from Euston to Manchester Airport e.g.
Euston, Watford, Tamworth, Stafford, Crewe, Wilmslow, Manchester Airport

That was tried by NWT in the 90s and was an abject failure, a 153 would have done. That said, LNR were exploring it again...

 

[Bald Rick]

An idea could be a service from Euston to Manchester Airport e.g.
Euston, Watford, Tamworth, Stafford, Crewe, Wilmslow, Manchester Airport

That would, very definitely, be primarily abstractive.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That would, very definitely, be primarily abstractive.

I'd venture that it wouldn't on the grounds that hardly anyone would use it, because it was tried before and it carried fewer passengers than the Conwy Valley does on a wet Wednesday afternoon in February.

That of course would also make it pointless

If another TOC or OAO is going to venture to Manchester, it needs to be Picc or Vic (or Oxford Road, I suppose). And indeed the NWT Vic service came close to financially washing its face even with a 2-car 158 - it was just not possible to path it among the increases to the franchised services.

 

[BayPaul]

That was tried by NWT in the 90s and was an abject failure, a 153 would have done. That said, LNR were exploring it again...

That doesn't necessarily mean it would be again. Manchester Airport is pretty well connected by road, rail, metrolink and bus, so doesn't make a bad railhead if marketed correctly. A non-stop (but fairly slow, i.e. no faster than if it did have a few stops) Euston - Manchester Airport service would perhaps not be primarily abstractive, but with good pricing so people don't mind having to get an extra ticket for the last bit of their journey, I could see it working in a similar way to the East Coast open access plan - attracting new business to rail. If you could manage to put in a few stops without being accused of too much abstraction, so much the better

 

[JonathanH]

with good pricing so people don't mind having to get an extra ticket for the last bit of their journey, I could see it working in a similar way to the East Coast open access plan

"Good Pricing" = less money for the DfT

If "good pricing" made sense on this flow, it would be in the interests of the DfT to get the incumbent operator to offer it.

 

[Ianno87]

That doesn't necessarily mean it would be again. Manchester Airport is pretty well connected by road, rail, metrolink and bus, so doesn't make a bad railhead if marketed correctly. A non-stop (but fairly slow, i.e. no faster than if it did have a few stops) Euston - Manchester Airport service would perhaps not be primarily abstractive, but with good pricing so people don't mind having to get an extra ticket for the last bit of their journey, I could see it working in a similar way to the East Coast open access plan - attracting new business to rail. If you could manage to put in a few stops without being accused of too much abstraction, so much the better

Shame the proposal LNWR seemingly had to extend the Euston-Crewe service to Manchester Airport is (presumably) now unlikely to happen. That would've been the best shout at such a thing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Shame the proposal LNWR seemingly had to extend the Euston-Crewe service to Manchester Airport is (presumably) now unlikely to happen. That would've been the best shout at such a thing.

Indeed so, because rather than the whole thing having to pay, basically you'd only need to be covering the additional cost of one unit (or two, at 8-car) and the required crews.