Open Access Anglo-Scottish Sleeper

[Mag_seven]

Could the Caledonian Sleeper operation do with some competition? If so how feasible could it be for someone to operate a competing service running say from Kings Cross via the ECML to Edinburgh and perhaps north to Aberdeen/Inverness? With mark 3 sleeping vehicles coming off-lease they could be converted to couchettes and operated as a low cost "no frills" service. Or they could just keep the existing configuration and apply the old "bargain berths" concept. Your thoughts please.

 

[SickyNicky]

Blimey I remember when they did something like that in the 80's. It was called "Nightrider", I seem to recall. Wasn't actually couchettes, but was all first class seats, so rather like the seated sleeper. I actually caught one of them once. It didn't last long, sadly.

 

[Aictos]

Maybe the OA could operate on the South West to Scotland route or in future have the two existing sleeper routes operated by the same company?

 

[Clip]

Its certainly feasible however i think the Scottish Govt would be vehemently against it

 

[The Planner]

You would probably get a better return on your money by going to Ladbrokes.

 

[Bald Rick]

Could the Caledonian Sleeper operation do with some competition? If so how feasible could it be for someone to operate a competing service running say from Kings Cross via the ECML to Edinburgh and perhaps north to Aberdeen/Inverness? With mark 3 sleeping vehicles coming off-lease they could be converted to couchettes and operated as a low cost "no frills" service. Or they could just keep the existing configuration and apply the old "bargain berths" concept. Your thoughts please.

You would probably get a better return on your money by going to Ladbrokes.

You would get a better return on your money by burning a stack of fivers. At least it would keep you warm for a while.

As mentioned on other threads, each passenger trip on the sleeper (including the seats and the day passengers) is subsidised to the tune of over £100. The principle of open access is that is requires no subsidy. Therefore unless you are going to put fares up by an average of £100 compared to the existing sleeper, or reduce unit costs by a similar amount in a way that has escaped the attention of Serco and their predecessors (including BR) you will lose a lot of money very quickly.

If you’re wondering why sleepers lose so much money, the principle reasons are that the rolling stock is used only once a day, it carries many fewer passengers per coach, and it needs a much higher level of staffing than ‘regular’ trains, through all parts of the operation (sales, on board, cleaning / servicing, etc).

 

[Clansman]

You would probably get a better return on your money by going to Ladbrokes.

Nah, SkyBet

 

[cactustwirly]

But OeBB's NightJet returns a small profit

 

[xotGD]

The sleeper does have competition. Early morning flights between Scotland and London. Or a train or plane the previous evening and a hotel. Or even overnight coaches for the most price conscious.

 

[Bald Rick]

But OeBB's NightJet returns a small profit

On a very different contractual basis, with different accounting, and on routes that have comparatively slow day trains, few late evening services, and not much air competition.

For example, if you want to leave central Vienna for Venice (a distance a little less than London to Edinburgh) after 1225, your options are a day train at 1425 that requires two connections and takes 8h30, one of two evening flights that take an hour, or the sleeper.

 

[WideRanger]

I've always wondered why we have never had a high-density couchette service in the UK. I have travelled on arrangements where they are really packed in in both Malaysia and India, and it works OK. Or to make it really basic, a completely empty carriage with people sleeping on the floor as on some bargain sleepers and overnight ferries in Japan. If there was a service that was really cut to the bone like that, could it break even?

I realise it is unrealistic, but I have an image of a pacer or another otherwise redundant dmu stripped out and to provide a very basic sleeper. No assigned berths (in fact, no beds, just carpetted floor, with rollout mattresses), no facilities beyond toilets and heating, minimal staffing.

 

[xotGD]

I've always wondered why we have never had a high-density couchette service in the UK. I have travelled on arrangements where they are really packed in in both Malaysia and India, and it works OK. Or to make it really basic, a completely empty carriage with people sleeping on the floor as on some bargain sleepers and overnight ferries in Japan. If there was a service that was really cut to the bone like that, could it break even?

I realise it is unrealistic, but I have an image of a pacer or another otherwise redundant dmu stripped out and to provide a very basic sleeper. No assigned berths (in fact, no beds, just carpetted floor, with rollout mattresses), no facilities beyond toilets and heating, minimal staffing.

London to Inverness lying on the floor of a Pacer. I am LOLing!

 

[30907]

On a very different contractual basis, with different accounting, and on routes that have comparatively slow day trains, few late evening services, and not much air competition.

And NJ - along with all mainland operators - can run 3-berth sleepers and 6-berth couchettes where the UK would be limited to 2 and 4 because of loading gauge.

 

[SickyNicky]

London to Inverness lying on the floor of a Pacer. I am LOLing!

I'm well up for that! Probably want a buffet on board though.

 

[yorksrob]

Personally I think a nightrider type service would be good. You would have big, comfortable seats and gentle lighting where people would be able to have a snooze.

Costs would be less than a sleeper due to having a higher density and fewer staff.

The price would be reasonable, compared to an advanced fare combined with cheap-middling hotel.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Personally I think a nightrider type service would be good. You would have big, comfortable seats and gentle lighting where people would be able to have a snooze.

Costs would be less than a sleeper due to having a higher density and fewer staff.

The price would be reasonable, compared to an advanced fare combined with cheap-middling hotel.

Like the CS seating car itself, you mean?

 

[gazthomas]

Personally I think a nightrider type service would be good. You would have big, comfortable seats and gentle lighting where people would be able to have a snooze.

Costs would be less than a sleeper due to having a higher density and fewer staff.

The price would be reasonable, compared to an advanced fare combined with cheap-middling hotel.

If there was demand wouldnt LNER and VT be running services already? Both have diesel fleets that could deal with night time diversions

 

[IanXC]

In terms of cutting costs I think the obvious way initially is to run no potions, no planned reversals, hence 1 loco for each direction no shunters etc.

Given the comparison with NightJet and the historic performance of BR's sleepers perhaps the OAO opportunity is a cross country sleeper, doubling up as an overnight train between more local stations.

One thing is clear as far as I can see, if it's ever going to happen, while there are Mark 3 sleepers coming off lease will be the time.

 

[yorksrob]

Like the CS seating car itself, you mean?

Yes, maybe something like that, or perhaps some redundant 1st class carriages.

If there was demand wouldnt LNER and VT be running services already? Both have diesel fleets that could deal with night time diversions

There are late evening services, but they tend to drop you in the early hours, which means you still have to find somewhere to stay. I like the idea of something that gets you there in the morning.

 

[jagardner1984]

I don’t think a true sleeper as such will even run in competition. But I do think to the really excellent Mk4 first class carriages coming off lease with LNER soon, and wonder if there is any mileage in literally a slow overnight train, and whether any ROSCO would put them out at a reasonable enough rate to pitch it a bit below the sleeper market and a bit above the coach market. 6 Coaches, 2200 from Glasgow via Edinburgh at 2300, into Kings Cross at 0600 ? Are there showers in the LNER lounge there ? Could a deal be done ?

I would say at current pricing there is a group of travellers essentially forced onto short haul flights, which can’t be right in the current environmental climate. (There are obviously a myriad of policy and operational reasons that have led to that, and the Scottish Government cancelling the planned cut in Air Passenger Duty is a good first step at not further undermining rail /sleeper services.)

As a side note, I’ve always thought there would be a good wheeze for rail companies on a few really off peak services (1 or 2 a day) to call them “air trains” and price March any advertised fare on any airline (present a screen grab or similar). Virgin may shout loudly about its £30 fares from Glasgow to London, but widespread public perception is that air is cheaper.

 

[Bald Rick]

I don’t think a true sleeper as such will even run in competition. But I do think to the really excellent Mk4 first class carriages coming off lease with LNER soon, and wonder if there is any mileage in literally a slow overnight train, and whether any ROSCO would put them out at a reasonable enough rate to pitch it a bit below the sleeper market and a bit above the coach market. 6 Coaches, 2200 from Glasgow via Edinburgh at 2300, into Kings Cross at 0600 ? Are there showers in the LNER lounge there ? Could a deal be done ?

I would say at current pricing there is a group of travellers essentially forced onto short haul flights, which can’t be right in the current environmental climate. (There are obviously a myriad of policy and operational reasons that have led to that, and the Scottish Government cancelling the planned cut in Air Passenger Duty is a good first step at not further undermining rail /sleeper services.)

As a side note, I’ve always thought there would be a good wheeze for rail companies on a few really off peak services (1 or 2 a day) to call them “air trains” and price March any advertised fare on any airline (present a screen grab or similar). Virgin may shout loudly about its £30 fares from Glasgow to London, but widespread public perception is that air is cheaper.

There really isn’t the market for this. As a rule, people don’t like travelling overnight. The sleeper has seating coaches now (one coach per each Edinburgh / Glasgow portion, about 40-50seats each), they are very reasonably priced, and as other posters will confirm, they are not exactly full every night. You can get a single in the seats from Edinburgh to London tomorrow night for £45.

 

[jagardner1984]

Yes. I think cheap seats might bite into the flights market (bear in mind many flights are in the £30 area London to Scotland). But I don’t think it’s likely.

 

[Indigo Soup]

As mentioned on other threads, each passenger trip on the sleeper (including the seats and the day passengers) is subsidised to the tune of over £100. The principle of open access is that is requires no subsidy. Therefore unless you are going to put fares up by an average of £100 compared to the existing sleeper, or reduce unit costs by a similar amount in a way that has escaped the attention of Serco and their predecessors (including BR) you will lose a lot of money very quickly.

There is an open-access sleeper in the UK: the Belmond Royal Scotsman. Yes, it parks up in a quiet siding overnight so as not to disturb the guests' sleep, but with appropriate pathing and stock with good riding characteristics, it could equally well run from one place to another if that suited a particular service.

The cost of a trip on the Royal Scotsman makes even a Caledonian Double look like a bargain, but gives a pretty fair indication of what a purely commercial sleeper service would entail in terms of cost and provision of service.

 

[gordonthemoron]

just have a train completely made up of bar cars a la Finland