Oops wrong train

[dotdavid]

Hi all,

Found this forum when Googling my question as I was curious as to what the "official line" is, and have since been very impressed by the discussions here.

Yesterday I was a bit silly and got on the wrong train by mistake. Presumably the timetables had changed and the 18.30 EC service from Kings Cross to Stevenage that I usually get had moved to 18.33. That wouldn't have normally been a problem for me, except that one of the other services from Kings Cross to Peterborough had been timetabled at 18.30 instead.

I was running late due to crowding on the tube and when I resurfaced I pretty stupidly just glanced at the departure board for the 18.30 and headed towards that platform, so as not to miss it. The train left (it was about five minutes late in the end so I should have double checked) and it was only when it passed Stevenage that the terrible truth dawned on me. I was very glad that I didn't end up in Grantham or somewhere!

In the end I got off at Peterborough and got a train back to Stevenage. However it got me thinking;

a) As I was clearly on a train that my KGX - SVG season ticket doesn't cover, would I have been liable for a penalty fare if a ticket inspector had happened along?
b) If so, would my circumstances be classed as mitigating, or would it be really up to the inspector?
c) What would your recommended course of action be if in a similar situation? Should I have approached the train guard when I had noticed, or waited as I did?

Right or wrong I would have probably been quite annoyed if charged a penalty fare for travel to somewhere where I blatantly didn't want to go, but after reading through some of these forums I've gotten a bit more of an appreciation for the other side of the story. Although I plan to double-check more thoroughly before travelling in future, I have done this sort of thing before by accident when there were two services leaving at the same time* and I've been tired or ill and picked the wrong one - and I don't doubt it might happen again so I'd rather have a little inside knowledge if possible!

Thanks!

(* That time it was to Royston, and the staff at the ticket barriers just told me to get on a train back to Stevenage so I kinda assumed that was the rules)

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm also pretty sure you'll get a lot more sympathy from staff on the first day folloeing a fairly major timetable change, than if you do the same in three or four months time...

 

[north]

Technically I believe you would be liable for a PF....

I thought that EC were not part of the penalty fare scheme. I'm not sure how you check this however. So you may have to buy a Anytime Single from Stevenage to Peterborough.

 

[island]

While strictly speaking you would be liable to buy a full single from Stevenage to Peterborough, I suspect given the circumstances you would have been issued a permit to travel back to Stevenage and a wry smile.

 

[323235]

You would surely be liable for an Anytime Single to Peterborough (From Stevenage) and a Penalty Fare or Prosecution on the First Capital Connect service.

 

[Mintona]

You would surely be liable for an Anytime Single to Peterborough (From London) and a Penalty Fare or Prosecution on the First Capital Connect service.

That's if you encountered a robot. I cannot believe anybody would prosecute or PF you for making that mistake, especially on the first day of a timetable.

 

[323235]

Maybe not East Coast, though the rules of Advance tickets seem very clear. I can believe FCC would....

 

[MikeWh]

You would surely be liable for an Anytime Single to Peterborough (From London) and a Penalty Fare or Prosecution on the First Capital Connect service.

That's if you encountered a robot. I cannot believe anybody would prosecute or PF you for making that mistake, especially on the first day of a timetable.

Absolutely. You would have to be very rude to the RPI or be incredibly unlucky to get anything other than a sympathetic outcome to this.

 

[island]

Maybe not East Coast, though the rules of Advance tickets seem very clear. I can believe FCC would....

Where did Advance tickets come into this? The OP has a season ticket.

 

[323235]

oops wrong ticket

In that case I agree with Island , at worst at Stevenage - Peterborough Single after a quick glance at the Excess Rules ( and therefore probably best to buy a Return there if that happened). Although the worst on FCC is probably still Penalty Fare (or Prosecution) if they do not take pity on a genuine mistake.

 

[LexyBoy]

I thought that EC were not part of the penalty fare scheme. I'm not sure how you check this however. So you may have to buy a Anytime Single from London (or possibly Stevenage) to Peterborough.

You are of course right (my original post has been removed to avoid confusion) - I picked it up from OP's post without thinking about whether PFs actually apply on EC.

In my experience (and that of everyone I know), a guard would probably have a little chuckle and tell you when the next train back is. This is true on all ticket types, but especially for Season tickets since it's then obvious that you made a mistake rather than are "trying it on".

You would surely be liable for an Anytime Single to Peterborough (From London) and a Penalty Fare or Prosecution on the First Capital Connect service.

I don't know about FCC other than from this forum, but even with their reputation I'd be very surprised if this happened. Still, best to ask the EC guard, or someone at Peterborough, who will give you a permit to travel.

(also - why would you not be liable for prosecution on the EC service?)

 

[philjo]

At least you were not on the 17:00 or 18:00 as first stop for those services after Kings Cross is York!

 

[Vectorspace]

Something similar happened to me last year.

I was at Birmingham New Street, to take the 16:33 XC (always a 220/221 Voyager) to Leamington Spa, which usually departs platform 10A. My train into New St. was running late, so I had seconds to sprint to 10A. It was 16:33 and there was an XC Voyager at the platform, so I jumped in just as the doors closed.

A few minutes out of New St. I noticed that the train was on the wrong line, so I went and found the guard, who told me that I was on the 16:30 to Edinburgh, next stop Derby in about an hour. Somewhat out of the way!

The guard was very understanding - he did not make me buy a ticket to Derby, but advised that the guard on the return train might make me buy a ticket from Derby to New St. I didn't see the guard on the return train, so I didn't end up paying anything extra.

My advice, if you find yourself in a similar situation, would be to find the guard and tell him what has happened (not exactly fare 'dodging' if you go and tell the guard instead of trying to hide it). I would imagine that most of the time, you would just have to buy a ticket to the next stop.

 

[MichaelAMW]

Once upon a time, the ticket examiners handbook had a section allowing for this situation. Passengers accidentally conveyed to the wrong place were to be allowed to return on the next service for no charge. Does anyone know if this, or anything similar, is still in place?

 

[Flamingo]

The official line is that you can be charged. It depends on the scenario.

Scenario one - HST Reading to Paddington. Passenger with ticket to Reading West "I got on the wrong train". HST's do not go to Reading West, and do not go from the London train platforms, so not believable. In this case, they get charged a full open single or PF.

Scenario two - same train, passenger with ticket to Slough "I got on the wrong train", HST's do go to Slough and from the same platforms, so believable, ticket endorsed to request travel back from Pad to Slough.

The big picture has to be looked at. As a rule, if the story is not believable, then it's just that - a story!
are evasion.

If you discover yourself to be in any scenario where you think your ticket may not be valid, always find the guard. You will be given a much more sympathetic hearing. The guard / revenue staff role is to prevent / deter fare evasion. If they find you, it's a potential fare evasion situation, if you find them then you are obviously not trying to evade.

 

[dotdavid]

Thanks all for the comments! I'm glad it's not just me that's done this once or twice anyway. It's reassuring that it's a thing that you're usually not penalised for anyway, although knowing my luck I'd encounter a guard that's had a really bad day or something!

It does remind me actually of another time when I was at uni and travelling from Lancaster to Milton Keynes. Similar to one of the posters above my train was delayed but there was another delayed train where I had expected mine to be so I jumped on that. I only noticed I was on the wrong one when it failed to stop at Preston like my trains *always* did.

I ended up getting off at the next stop which was Manchester Piccadilly or something and buying a new ticket onwards from there, mainly because my advance purchase ticket was for a specific train. Fortunately it didn't cost me too much there as I had a railcard at the time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oh, there was another question I had;

When I accidentally got on the wrong train that left at the same time as mine and ended up at Royston I approached the ticket barrier guards and they told me to return by train back to Stevenage. As Royston isn't too far from Stevenage but has a generally slow train service I asked them whether instead I could get my OH to pick me up by car, but they said they couldn't let me do that without a penalty fare. I did think "fair enough" at the time but wonder whether some would let you leave if you purchase a ticket from the station you overshot to your destination (in my case Stevenage -> Royston)?

I guess the downside of letting people do that is you might end up with people doing it rather than buying a ticket before travel, although it would be a lot more hassle contriving things so your story is believable I would have thought.

I never realised ticketing could be so complicated.

 

[Deerfold]

I guess the downside of letting people do that is you might end up with people doing it rather than buying a ticket before travel, although it would be a lot more hassle contriving things so your story is believable I would have thought.

I never realised ticketing could be so complicated.

I suspect if you did something that complicated regularly you're likely to become known to staff...

 

[dotdavid]

I suspect if you did something that complicated regularly you're likely to become known to staff...

False beard?

 

[MichaelAMW]

The official line is that you can be charged. It depends on the scenario.

Scenario one - HST Reading to Paddington. Passenger with ticket to Reading West "I got on the wrong train". HST's do not go to Reading West, and do not go from the London train platforms, so not believable. In this case, they get charged a full open single or PF.

I don't think it can *ever* be fair to base your approach on a requirement to know about types of rolling stock and the way that a large number of (reversible) platforms are used at a particular station. "London train platforms" at Reading also take you elsewhere.

Where is the compassion in all this? Someone on the wrong train is in a bad enough situation as it is and there is no benefit in making things worse.

 

[LexyBoy]

I don't think it can *ever* be fair to base your approach on a requirement to know about types of rolling stock and the way that a large number of (reversible) platforms are used at a particular station. "London train platforms" at Reading also take you elsewhere.

Whilst I agree that it's wrong to assume that everyone has the same level of knowledge as a regular traveller, Flamingo has picked a fairly extreme example - for starters, hardly anyone travels between Reading and Reading West by train (without having come from further afield), and a train to Reading West would never leave from the London-bound platforms (I don't know if it's even possible).

A more reasonable example might be a passenger with a ticket to Pangbourne (opposite direction to London, but on the mainline). In this case it is not unusual for the train to go from the London platforms, and it may also be an HST. I'd hope in this case for the passenger to be allowed to travel back.

 

[Greenback]

The point is that they may not be on the wrong train. Someone may have purchased a Reading to Reading West ticket, plus an Acton Main Line to Paddington ticket to get through both sets of barriers, and be relying on there being no ticket check on board.

In Flamingo's example, they are going in the wrong direction, with a ticket that is suspicious in itself, as most people would not use the train to get to Reading West!

 

[MichaelAMW]

Whilst I agree that it's wrong to assume that everyone has the same level of knowledge as a regular traveller, Flamingo has picked a fairly extreme example - for starters, hardly anyone travels between Reading and Reading West by train (without having come from further afield), and a train to Reading West would never leave from the London-bound platforms (I don't know if it's even possible).

Reading doesn't really have London-bound platforms, although of course there are typical/usual uses for most of them. P. 8 certainly has trains in both directions and that could be services heading down the Newbury line as well as to London. You could perhaps reasonably approximate P. 5 to a London-bound platform, although there is the odd exception in my experience.

Anyway, I was really trying to make the point that you can't expect too much of the 'lay person' and that taking a harsh approach towards someone already in a mess is simply excessive and unpleasant. The wider issue of people trying it on is something else entirely.

 

[allticketspls]

Once upon a time, the ticket examiners handbook had a section allowing for this situation. Passengers accidentally conveyed to the wrong place were to be allowed to return on the next service for no charge. Does anyone know if this, or anything similar, is still in place?

I know that at Euston we just normally take the overcarried passenger to the next train calling at the station required, have a word with the train manager and get them back where they should be.

 

[LexyBoy]

Reading doesn't really have London-bound platforms, although of course there are typical/usual uses for most of them. P. 8 certainly has trains in both directions and that could be services heading down the Newbury line as well as to London. You could perhaps reasonably approximate P. 5 to a London-bound platform, although there is the odd exception in my experience.

I'd say that P5/8 are de facto London platforms, but agree that they're pretty flexible (I remember once when platforms 4,5,8 and 9 were occupied simultaneously by London bound fast trains). I've not seen any Newbury or similar trains depart from these platforms, but I'd accept that it happens from time to time (during engineering for instance).

Anyway, I was really trying to make the point that you can't expect too much of the 'lay person' and that taking a harsh approach towards someone already in a mess is simply excessive and unpleasant. The wider issue of people trying it on is something else entirely.

Agreed - and as everyone's been saying, guards generally do act sympathetically. It's only in cases like Flamingo's example, where someone is much, much more likely to be using a ticket just to get through the barriers than they are to have made a mistake, that a 'harsh' approach is taken.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Once upon a time, the ticket examiners handbook had a section allowing for this situation. Passengers accidentally conveyed to the wrong place were to be allowed to return on the next service for no charge. Does anyone know if this, or anything similar, is still in place?

I remember that too and have been trying to find out the current advice. I'm advised that this is the wording:
"Over-riding and deviation from the route

Providing you are satisfied with the traveller's explanation that there is no attempt to avoid payment, customers who are inadvertently over-carried may be permitted to return to the intended destination by the next train. Endorse the back of the travel ticket or give 'authority to travel'."

Otherwise, an Excess is appropriate.
This seems completely consistent with the example Flamingo provided.

 

[Flamingo]

Whilst I agree that it's wrong to assume that everyone has the same level of knowledge as a regular traveller, Flamingo has picked a fairly extreme example - for starters, hardly anyone travels between Reading and Reading West by train (without having come from further afield), and a train to Reading West would never leave from the London-bound platforms (I don't know if it's even possible).

A more reasonable example might be a passenger with a ticket to Pangbourne (opposite direction to London, but on the mainline). In this case it is not unusual for the train to go from the London platforms, and it may also be an HST. I'd hope in this case for the passenger to be allowed to travel back.

I gave the "extreme" example as it is actually quite common - I had a group of males, on a group 4 to Reading West a few months ago, all quite blatantly heading into London. One of them even said (when I told them to give me the return portion) but we'll need them to get out when we go back tonight!

I don't think it can *ever* be fair to base your approach on a requirement to know about types of rolling stock and the way that a large number of (reversible) platforms are used at a particular station. "London train platforms" at Reading also take you elsewhere.

Where is the compassion in all this? Someone on the wrong train is in a bad enough situation as it is and there is no benefit in making things worse.

Dumb-belling at Reading (without even bothering to get one for Paddington, just depending on being able to get out at Pad) is very common - and quite blatant. The "everybody is an innocent confused passenger" view is quite naive (to be charitable).

There are nasty people out there. I had one tonight who had "left his ticket in the waiting room" but couldn't tell me how much it had cost, or where he had bought it. But he was 6ft, and very aggressive. Should I have taken his word on it? (along with the legions of people who spoke to the "man on the platform" who said their off-peak or advance tickets would be fine on a peak train). In those circumstances, the easy option is to say OK. (I never believed in taking the easy option.)

 

[spacehopper]

I can only back up what Flamingo says- it's not very often I come across a "wrong train" situation but you know pretty much instantly if they are genuine or out to defraud.

You do come across tickets where the other guard has requested a pass back and as such has written on the back of the ticket. I've even had other guards ring me up to tell me to expect a pax to be on the platform usually followed by "make sure they get off at the right stop".

9/10 it will be someone has read the arrivals screen rather than departures or a foreigner / tourist usually Chinese.

Never charge for a genuine mistake.

It really does make a difference if you have a word with us before you board. Nearly always just tell you to take a seat. Had a lad tonight who had come up from Leeds bought his tickets from RailEasy some how they cocked them up. XC TM had let him travel and obviously told him to tell the guard on the next leg.

 

[W-on-Sea]

Only happened to me once (so far). The old Kings Cross Thameslink station, rush hour. Display board said it was a stopping train, but it wasn't (maybe there were announcements on the train - but if there were I wasn't listening). I wanted West Hampstead (and had a zones 1-2 travelcard), ended up at St Albans. Didn't run into any grippers or other staff either on that train or the one back to West Hampstead, but am glad to hear that a sensible and reasonable approach is taken.

 

[Flamingo]

Further to the short-ticketing scenario, here are some interesting figures for Grangetown station (which is the closest station to Cardiff Central), in terms in tickets sold:

2004/05 * 0.601 million
2005/06 * decrease 0.326 million
2006/07 * decrease 115,108
2007/08 * increase 124,937
2008/09 * increase 133,478
2009/10 * increase 134,360

What caused a decrease of nearly 450 000 passengers buying tickets to/from this station? The installation of barriers in most of the mainline (and a lot of the minor) stations in South Wales. So buying a ticket to Grangetown (or from Grangetown when stopped at the barriers at Cardiff) was suddenly not an option.

Anybody I find on my train with a ticket to Grangetown gets short shrift. They ALWAYS buy a ticket, and a few of them have been referred to BTP.