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Ontario Northlander train resuming service

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AlastairFraser

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The first new trainset for the resumption of the Ontario Northlander passenger train has arrived, according to the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation.
The train was cancelled back in 2012, as a result of a previous provincial government's desire to switch to a coach-based option, but the current provincial government has invested in reopening.
Will post the full article below (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sudbury/northlander-trains-northern-ontario-ford-9.7038210):

Ontario unveils first look at revived Northlander passenger train​

The train's official return to service remains unknown​

The Ontario government unveiled the first of three new Northlander passenger trains Thursday, offering the clearest sign yet that the long-promised return of rail service between northern Ontario and Toronto is approaching.

"We're bringing back the Northlander nearly 14 years after it was cancelled by the previous Liberal government, so we can connect communities from Cochrane and Timmins all the way to downtown Toronto," said Ontario Premier Doug Ford at a press conference in Toronto.

"The Northlander is more than a train. It's a lifeline to jobs, education, family and friends, and so much more. It connects our province from north to south and creates economic opportunity," he added.

The service was discontinued in 2012 under the former Liberal government, which cited high operating costs and low ridership. At the time, then-premier Kathleen Wynne said the province would shift from rail to bus service.
During his 2018 election campaign, Ford pledged to bring the Northlander back.

Four years later, the province announced it had purchased three new trainsets — each set includes one locomotive and three passenger cars — for $139.5 million. At the time the province projected the annual ridership of between 40,000 and 60,000 passengers by 2041.

The Northlander will run between Toronto’s Union Station and Timmins, with 16 stops along a roughly 740-kilometre route and a rail connection to Cochrane. The trip is expected to take between 10 and 11 hours from end to end.

The trains will feature accessible seating, washrooms, Wi-Fi and charging ports.

Once testing and commissioning are complete in Toronto, the trains will be sent north for additional trials before entering service “later in 2026,” Ford said.

The full price-tag for the Northlander's return and the cost of tickets remains unknown.

According to a 2022 business case, annual operating costs for the restored service are estimated at about $283 million, with revenues of up to $93 million if ridership reaches roughly 58,000 passengers by 2041.

By comparison, the Northlander carried about 39,000 riders in 2011, the year before it was cancelled, with an annual subsidy of $100 million to keep it running.

Kirkland Lake Mayor Stacy Wight said the train will simplify travel for families whose children attend university in southern Ontario.

"When [my son] comes home to the north now using the bus, when he gets to North Bay, his travel ends there, and we have to go from Kirkland Lake, our hometown, to North Bay to get him," she said.

"When the train is in service, he will have one way to come home to us and then get back safely," Wight said. "This announcement is going to make not only students lives better, but all of the North's lives better."
 
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jamesontheroad

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For those that are interested, Ontario Northland’s website has more info about infrastructure and station upgrades, as well as the route map.

New Train Sets​

The new era of the Northlander will see three new trainsets enter into service. The Venture Trainset consists of one locomotive and three passenger cars.

Timmins Porcupine Station​

Ontario Northland is prioritizing safety, accessibility and convenience in the new Timmins-Porcupine station. The station will serve as a waiting area for Northlander and motor coach passengers and Bus Parcel Express services.

Track Enhancements​

Ontario Northland has completed several rail infrastructure projects to prepare for the return of the Northlander passenger train service.
 
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williamn

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I’m curious as to why both North and Southbound schedules are overnight, on a train with no sleeping accommodation.
 

stadler

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How ridiculous that they are running them in both directions overnight services. I see no reason why they can not run it as a day service in both directions. It is not like it is a busy line with capacity problems. Being an overnight train will make it a lot less popular than if it was a daytime service.
 

williamn

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I suspect it’s to give North Bay a service that allows a day in Toronto, but in so doing it makes the service pretty useless for anyone further North. Obviously anywhere else in the world they’d have more than one service a day so you could still do this AND give places north a separate daytime service, but this is North America so that’s not going to happen…
 

stadler

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I find it funny that those two ten minute calls are advertised as "rest stops" on the timetables. It can hardly be described as a "rest stop" when you only have ten minutes. Nobody would alight and pop to a shop or cafe or toilets or anything with such a short stop. You would risk missing the train.
 

AdamWW

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I find it funny that those two ten minute calls are advertised as "rest stops" on the timetables. It can hardly be described as a "rest stop" when you only have ten minutes. Nobody would alight and pop to a shop or cafe or toilets or anything with such a short stop. You would risk missing the train.

"Smoking stop" might be more accurate.
 

ShadowKnight

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When else (and how many more) round trips should be run?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Also I don't understand the timmins-cochrane rail connection. It seems to be that the same train will reverse onward from timmins to Cochrane but is branded separately?
 
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williamn

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They’ve only got 3 train sets so assuming one is a spare I don’t think they can do any more than one trip a day in each direction.
 

stadler

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They’ve only got 3 train sets so assuming one is a spare I don’t think they can do any more than one trip a day in each direction.
The journey time is 10 hours and 40 minutes each way. So with two train sets you could easily run two trains a day in each direction and have 1 hour and 20 minutes layover at each end. That is feasable. They could regularly swap trainsets with the third spare set to enable maintenance.
 

williamn

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The journey time is 10 hours and 40 minutes each way. So with two train sets you could easily run two trains a day in each direction and have 1 hour and 20 minutes layover at each end. That is feasable. They could regularly swap trainsets with the third spare set to enable maintenance.
interesting! I think it’s incredibly unlikely there will be more than 1 train a day, indeed I think they’ve suggested it will be less than that. Remember that even between Toronto and Ottawa there are only 6 trains a day and this route serves much smaller places.
 

AdamWW

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interesting! I think it’s incredibly unlikely there will be more than 1 train a day, indeed I think they’ve suggested it will be less than that.

Indeed - one of the links above says 4 to 7 days a week.

The journey time is 10 hours and 40 minutes each way. So with two train sets you could easily run two trains a day in each direction and have 1 hour and 20 minutes layover at each end. That is feasable.

Presumably they have an advantage over VIA in that in this case they own the tracks and operate freight services themselves.
But only allowing around an hour for delays seems ambitious for North American passenger rail.

Also I don't understand the timmins-cochrane rail connection. It seems to be that the same train will reverse onward from timmins to Cochrane but is branded separately?

Looking at the interactive map in one of the links above, there is an express bus shown between Matheson and Cochrane.
I presume the idea is that anyone heading to Cochrane itself or onwards on the "Polar Bear Express" would change to the bus at Matheson, rather than staying on the train to Timmins and then going back on themselves.

So the Timmins to Cochrane section would only be aimed at people travelling to/from Timmins and not any points further south.

I'm intrigued by the name of the Kirkland Lake (Swastika) station.

How ridiculous that they are running them in both directions overnight services. I see no reason why they can not run it as a day service in both directions. It is not like it is a busy line with capacity problems. Being an overnight train will make it a lot less popular than if it was a daytime service.

I would imagine that they've put a bit of thought into it.
 

williamn

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But only allowing around an hour for delays seems ambitious for North American passenger rail.
And I got the impression from another forum that VIA are having reliability issues with the same locomotives.
 

AlastairFraser

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For those that are interested, Ontario Northland’s website has more info about infrastructure and station upgrades, as well as the route map.

Thanks for finding this, wasn't sure whether to post it initially.
I’m curious as to why both North and Southbound schedules are overnight, on a train with no sleeping accommodation.
A few reasons I think.
The railway it uses is well used by freight services to the region, which has a lot of mining and forestry operations.
I think the passenger services will be operating around the existing freight schedule (although it's owned by the Ontario provincial government, so it's less of a barrier than fighting the Genesee and Wyoming or Canadian National with their core focus on profitability).

You also have to consider that most passengers won't be doing the full journey, there's a fair amount of population north of the Barrie area in Simcoe County (around 100k in the Orilla/Washago/Midland/Bracebridge area I believe) that may choose to take it instead of driving to a Go station. There's also the Muskoka towns like Huntsville that will get stops and that will attract people on weekend breaks away from the Greater Toronto Area.
North Bay is another large settlement and then there's nothing above 50k population IIRC, and people going to regions beyond North Bay will likely be returning from/leaving for longer journeys away.
How ridiculous that they are running them in both directions overnight services. I see no reason why they can not run it as a day service in both directions. It is not like it is a busy line with capacity problems. Being an overnight train will make it a lot less popular than if it was a daytime service.
It is well used for goods services already. I don't think it will be particularly unpopular because the existing option for most of the areas served is a long distance coach with even less amenities (not great especially for communities further north - a journey from Cochrane to Toronto currently takes 12 hours and 57 mins with 2 transfers!).
Timmins and North Bay have flights to Toronto, although North Bay is losing its Pearson flights with Air Canada soon, replaced by Propair services to Billy Bishop Airport in the city centre (these will be quite expensive and focused on the business traveller).
I find it funny that those two ten minute calls are advertised as "rest stops" on the timetables. It can hardly be described as a "rest stop" when you only have ten minutes. Nobody would alight and pop to a shop or cafe or toilets or anything with such a short stop. You would risk missing the train.
The surrounding area at some of the stops is pretty rural, so there's not really a point of stopping for any longer.
The train will have a galley for food service according to a video of the new train's interior.
Looking at the interactive map in one of the links above, there is an express bus shown between Matheson and Cochrane.
I presume the idea is that anyone heading to Cochrane itself or onwards on the "Polar Bear Express" would change to the bus at Matheson, rather than staying on the train to Timmins and then going back on themselves.

So the Timmins to Cochrane section would only be aimed at people travelling to/from Timmins and not any points further south.
Although I think that there's the advantage of a one seat ride the whole way to Toronto, and the seats look reasonably comfortable (according to this video from Ontario Northland:
).
It might be possible to get some sleep overnight if the ambience is OK when trains are in service.
I'm intrigued by the name of the Kirkland Lake (Swastika) station.
Swastika is a nearby mining town, it was founded around a gold mine named Swastika because the symbol was apparently a symbol of good luck at the time!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika,_Ontario
 

AdamWW

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Swastika is a nearby mining town, it was founded around a gold mine named Swastika because the symbol was apparently a symbol of good luck at the time!

Oh indeed. Kipling used to use Swastikas liberally on his books.
But I believe he stopped quite smartly when it started taking on a different meaning and I'd have thought the same might have happened here.
 

Tester

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Oh indeed. Kipling used to use Swastikas liberally on his books.
But I believe he stopped quite smartly when it started taking on a different meaning and I'd have thought the same might have happened here.
Swastikas have a long history with religious significance in some Asian countries; it is not unusual to see them on maps to indicate temples.

Nothing is read into it, and they are not best pleased about the appropriation.
 

AdamWW

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There's also the Muskoka towns like Huntsville that will get stops and that will attract people on weekend breaks away from the Greater Toronto Area.

Yes I can imagine people who wouldn't think of getting a coach (as opposed to driving) being tempted by the train. Particularly as it goes to downtown Toronto whereas, presumably to avoid traffic, the coaches generally stop a way out, though with good access on the subway.

Hunstville also has the advantage that the station is actually in the town whereas the bus stops in the suburbs.
 

williamn

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Yes I can imagine people who wouldn't think of getting a coach (as opposed to driving) being tempted by the train. Particularly as it goes to downtown Toronto whereas, presumably to avoid traffic, the coaches generally stop a way out, though with good access on the subway.

Hunstville also has the advantage that the station is actually in the town whereas the bus stops in the suburbs.
On the other hand no one is going to be tempted out of a car or plane to sit upright overnight.
 

AdamWW

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On the other hand no one is going to be tempted out of a car or plane to sit upright overnight.

From a plane, no.

I can see circumstances in which an overnight train journey might seem more appealing.

At the moment it looks as if there's one bus connection a day from Cochrane to Toronto, and it runs during the daytime.
So - if that continues - it gives people a choice of overnight or day travel.

It will be interesting to see how the train fares compare to the coach fares - which themselves I wouldn't describe as particularly cheap.


I suspect it’s to give North Bay a service that allows a day in Toronto,

It also allows time for connections to places outside Toronto without having to spend the night there.

Given the constraint of no more than one train a day this is possibly the least worst option.

Shame they can't manage more than that though given the investment involved.
 

AlastairFraser

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Yes I can imagine people who wouldn't think of getting a coach (as opposed to driving) being tempted by the train. Particularly as it goes to downtown Toronto whereas, presumably to avoid traffic, the coaches generally stop a way out, though with good access on the subway.

Hunstville also has the advantage that the station is actually in the town whereas the bus stops in the suburbs.
Exactly, and Langstaff/Gormley GO will be useful for people living in the suburbs (especially Langstaff as it's near Hwy 407 + connected to Richmond Hill bus terminal with Viva BRT/Go Transit/airport shuttle services) to be dropped off or connect in via local buses.
Oh indeed. Kipling used to use Swastikas liberally on his books.
But I believe he stopped quite smartly when it started taking on a different meaning and I'd have thought the same might have happened here.
Well, the Canadian government tried to change the name, but if you read the article, the residents refused! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika,_Ontario
Same ones as on the new VIA sets, which don’t seem popular with enthusiasts at least.
Although I do think it's different when people are making short journeys with frequent stops during the daytime and a train mostly travelling through the night with few interruptions e.g. Caledonian Sleeper seated coaches, which seem to be relatively popular.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

On the other hand no one is going to be tempted out of a car or plane to sit upright overnight.
Not necessarily, many European sleeper services have seated sections, and the current coach is far more uncomfortable with many changes. Most of the northern communities are an hour's drive at least from the nearest airport, and driving the whole way takes 7hr30 minimum.
Shame they can't manage more than that though given the investment involved.
I don't think it does require a lot of investment to start with, given they already own the infrastructure and most of the stations will be relatively minimalist.
Perhaps they're waiting to see what happens with ridership to see if they invest more in daytime services too.
 
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AdamWW

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I don't think it does require a lot of investment to start with, given they already own the infrastructure and most of the stations will be relatively minimalist.

Not a huge investment I suppose but they do seem to be building new waiting rooms at stations.
 

williamn

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driving the whole way takes 7hr30 minimum.
This is Canada, people are used to driving long distances, and car is the default. When I worked in Toronto we had several customers driving 5/6 hours hours to visit our business without giving it a second thought. Why would you swap a daytime drive at your own convenience for sitting up overnight?

Sure, European services have seated carriages overnight but these are mostly popular with those with quite limited budgets. Caledonian Sleeper seated coaches are not popular because they're comfortable (they're really not) but because they're cheap.
 

AlastairFraser

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Not a huge investment I suppose but they do seem to be building new waiting rooms at stations.
True.
This is Canada, people are used to driving long distances, and car is the default. When I worked in Toronto we had several customers driving 5/6 hours hours to visit our business without giving it a second thought. Why would you swap a daytime drive at your own convenience for sitting up overnight?

Sure, European services have seated carriages overnight but these are mostly popular with those with quite limited budgets. Caledonian Sleeper seated coaches are not popular because they're comfortable (they're really not) but because they're cheap.
Sure, people may drive from areas with better infrastructure, but the standard of roads in Northern Ontario is very low.
If you look in the Cochrane area, there are currently several roads closed for days on end.
Not to mention that many communities north of this town only have rail, maritime and air connections, no roads have ever been laid in a lot of the region! You can't treat it as if it's some peripheral city in flat and well developed southern Ontario!

Seated coaches work for people on limited budgets, which fits the definition of most in Northern Ontario (it's not a particularly rich region, and a lot of the jobs are dependent on large employers which often aren't particularly resilient to rapidly changing market conditions).
Those with tons of money will still fly, but the train returning, even without proper sleeping accommodation, represents a massively welcome development for the people of Northern Ontario, who suffer particularly badly from the effects of poor connectivity.
 

jamesontheroad

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I'm intrigued by the name of the Kirkland Lake (Swastika) station.

Swastika is a nearby mining town, it was founded around a gold mine named Swastika because the symbol was apparently a symbol of good luck at the time!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika,_Ontario

Swastikas have a long history with religious significance in some Asian countries; it is not unusual to see them on maps to indicate temples.

Nothing is read into it, and they are not best pleased about the appropriation.

Swastika, On. probably isn't the worst place name in Canada. There's plenty to choose from, including: Stoner, BC; Happyland, Sk; Climax, Sk; Emo, On; Punkeydoodles Corners, On; Asbestos, Qc. (yes, there's a mine) and Dildo in Newfoundland and Labrador (no, no idea).
 

Amalie

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Swastika, On. probably isn't the worst place name in Canada. There's plenty to choose from, including: Stoner, BC; Happyland, Sk; Climax, Sk; Emo, On; Punkeydoodles Corners, On; Asbestos, Qc. (yes, there's a mine) and Dildo in Newfoundland and Labrador (no, no idea).
Some of these names seem more humorous then harmful per se, besides the annoyance to its population from outsiders.

While I understand that the symbol was/is also used for more peaceful religious contexts, stoners and emos for the most part are an annoyance at worst compared to those who reappropriated that symbol, whom can be actively harmful and violent towards others.

Personally, if I lived in an oddly named settlement, I’d rather have people make adult jokes about it than have people be suspicious on me having certain Germanic ties.

To return to the topic, although probably coincidental, the livery of the new Northlander trains do seem somewhat reminiscent of the new NS flow liveries.
 

AlastairFraser

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Swastika, On. probably isn't the worst place name in Canada. There's plenty to choose from, including: Stoner, BC; Happyland, Sk; Climax, Sk; Emo, On; Punkeydoodles Corners, On; Asbestos, Qc. (yes, there's a mine) and Dildo in Newfoundland and Labrador (no, no idea).
Hahaha, quite a few Newfoundland towns have been renamed by residents, due to previously having names that they weren't too fond of (along the lines of Dildo!)
 

GatwickDepress

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To return to the topic, although probably coincidental, the livery of the new Northlander trains do seem somewhat reminiscent of the new NS flow liveries.

1977 12-29 1215 ONR TEE-1961 S/B at Toronto, ON by Bill Kalkman, on Flickr

It's a nice callback to the original Northlander livery, the rolling stock of which-ironically-was mostly former NS DE4s (three of them plus one SBB RAm). They only wore the Trans-Europe Express red and cream in service across the pond, mind and were only repainted during modifications for Canadian service. It's happy coincidence that Ontario Northland and NS share a very similar colour scheme, but I would wager there is some NS inspiration from both the 70s and now.
 
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