'Only two bidders for SWT Franchise'

[Sparks807Evo]

Big battle coming up then - could very close although personally think Stagecoach will still just cross over the finishing line. Perhaps if they were to replace the 158/159s, the Siemens Verve in some bi mode version might be an option?

 

[pdeaves]

Big battle coming up then - could very close although personally think Stagecoach will still just cross over the finishing line.

Remember that Stagecoach couldn't agree acceptable terms for a franchise extension, so that may mean that they consider all the exciting things a competitor would offer to be too expensive or too risky.

 

[Sparks807Evo]

Remember that Stagecoach couldn't agree acceptable terms for a franchise extension, so that may mean that they consider all the exciting things a competitor would offer to be too expensive or too risky.

I hadn't thought of that - very true.

 

[WatcherZero]

Theres talk the dft wants to rush this franchising through by 2017 even if there isnt much competition because tfl will start taking over responsibility from 2019 onwards (post Waterloo works) and they want the franchise to be signed and sealed before they can meddle.

 

[Surreyman]

Theres talk the dft wants to rush this franchising through by 2017 even if there isnt much competition because tfl will start taking over responsibility from 2019 onwards (post Waterloo works) and they want the franchise to be signed and sealed before they can meddle.

With all this talk of TFL taking over London suburban routes, I checked a map of SW trains network in relation to the Greater London boundary, Unlike Southeastern, where the 'Metro' routes are mostly inside London, SWT would not be a simple 'carve up'.
Of the current class 455 operated 'inner suburban' red fleet, the Hounslow Loop & Kingston Loop are completely inside, The Windsor & Shepperton branches outside, Hampton Court branch only just outside, Chessington branch wholly inside.
The Epsom/Leatherhead/Dorking/Bookham/Effingham Jct/Guildford lines plus the 'stoppers' on the main line from Woking into Waterloo are outside, all these lines are worked by one fleet, I don't pretend to have any insight into diagramming but suspect most interwork and all are maintained at Wimbledon.
Not surprising then that DFT want the new franchise awarded ASAP, before a future London Mayor tries to make a grab!

 

[Jona26]

With all this talk of TFL taking over London suburban routes, I checked a map of SW trains network in relation to the Greater London boundary, Unlike Southeastern, where the 'Metro' routes are mostly inside London, SWT would not be a simple 'carve up'.
Of the current class 455 operated 'inner suburban' red fleet, the Hounslow Loop & Kingston Loop are completely inside, The Windsor & Shepperton branches outside, Hampton Court branch only just outside, Chessington branch wholly inside.
The Epsom/Leatherhead/Dorking/Bookham/Effingham Jct/Guildford lines plus the 'stoppers' on the main line from Woking into Waterloo are outside, all these lines are worked by one fleet, I don't pretend to have any insight into diagramming but suspect most interwork and all are maintained at Wimbledon.
Not surprising then that DFT want the new franchise awarded ASAP, before a future London Mayor tries to make a grab!

Although Thames Ditton and Hampton Court are outside of the London boroughs they are at least already in the zonal areas so I imagine that would make a transition slightly easier.

 

[Bald Rick]

Theres talk the dft wants to rush this franchising through by 2017 even if there isnt much competition because tfl will start taking over responsibility from 2019 onwards (post Waterloo works) and they want the franchise to be signed and sealed before they can meddle.

Poppycock I'm afraid.

TfL start taking responsibility when at a time that is agreed with the Secretary of State.

 

[WatcherZero]

Theyve relented from their previous firm no to yes, after Waterloo.
Process kicked off with a report in favour last June and tfl got agreement with the Minister around 20th Jan.

 

[GingerRH]

Remember that Stagecoach couldn't agree acceptable terms for a franchise extension, so that may mean that they consider all the exciting things a competitor would offer to be too expensive or too risky.

I hadn't thought of that - very true.

They didn't agree terms as the DfT wanted extortionate amounts of money for the 2 year extension, and by extortionate I mean it wouldn't be worth the money, they would rather use the money to build a better franchise package offer.

Also the Dft gave SWT a sum of money to complete works on the network. Example being £50million to refresh all stations.

 

[Class 170101]

1. Scotrail threw a spanner in the works by deciding not to release 29 x 170s after all and deciding instead 16 x 170s would be released.

Technically I think it was Transport Scotland who threw the spanner in the works on this one and not Abellio.

 

[new2this]

Theres talk the dft wants to rush this franchising through by 2017 even if there isnt much competition because tfl will start taking over responsibility from 2019 onwards (post Waterloo works) and they want the franchise to be signed and sealed before they can meddle.

So, after the the extentions to platforms 1-4 have been carried out, they will then go in for the kill and take it all from the new Franchisee?

 

[theironroad]

I think bids are supposed to submitted with the business cases showing separate scenarios for when the tfl run lines are split off, with an appropriate breeak clause in the agreement. As the proposed franchise is only 7-9 years anyway, it may not come around.

Maybe this, together with the Waterloo major remodeling, is why only two companies seem to have submitted bids.

 

[new2this]

With all this talk of TFL taking over London suburban routes, I checked a map of SW trains network in relation to the Greater London boundary, Unlike Southeastern, where the 'Metro' routes are mostly inside London, SWT would not be a simple 'carve up'.
Of the current class 455 operated 'inner suburban' red fleet, the Hounslow Loop & Kingston Loop are completely inside, The Windsor & Shepperton branches outside, Hampton Court branch only just outside, Chessington branch wholly inside.
The Epsom/Leatherhead/Dorking/Bookham/Effingham Jct/Guildford lines plus the 'stoppers' on the main line from Woking into Waterloo are outside, all these lines are worked by one fleet, I don't pretend to have any insight into diagramming but suspect most interwork and all are maintained at Wimbledon.
Not surprising then that DFT want the new franchise awarded ASAP, before a future London Mayor tries to make a grab!

To be honest, I would be very surprised if Tfl were to take a massive chunk of what the south western franchise is all about very soon, if this was the case I do not think First or Stagecoach would be too bothered about getting it if they know they are to lose part of it in a years time, if and when it does go to Tfl I do not think it will be as soon as people might think, maybe I am wrong, but I hope I am not.

 

[abn444]

I really hope that Stagecoach retain it. Having a semi-regular experience on both the Stagecoach run SWT and the FirstGroup run GWR, I would say that SWT is far better, especially when it comes to punctuality. As a side note, I believe today was the 20th anniversary of SWT.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

At the end of the day, I don't particularly care who runs the joint for the next few years. As long as I get paid at the end of each month, I'm not worried.

The only thing that I hope for is a better timetable, than the diatribe that we have now.

 

[swt_passenger]

With all this talk of TFL taking over London suburban routes, I checked a map of SW trains network in relation to the Greater London boundary, Unlike Southeastern, where the 'Metro' routes are mostly inside London, SWT would not be a simple 'carve up'.
Of the current class 455 operated 'inner suburban' red fleet, the Hounslow Loop & Kingston Loop are completely inside, The Windsor & Shepperton branches outside, Hampton Court branch only just outside, Chessington branch wholly inside.
The Epsom/Leatherhead/Dorking/Bookham/Effingham Jct/Guildford lines plus the 'stoppers' on the main line from Woking into Waterloo are outside, all these lines are worked by one fleet, I don't pretend to have any insight into diagramming but suspect most interwork and all are maintained at Wimbledon.
Not surprising then that DFT want the new franchise awarded ASAP, before a future London Mayor tries to make a grab!

By 2017 the rolling stock allocations to routes will all be different, as the 707s will be in use on the Windsor side. Much of the current inter working by 455/456 will be simplified. But this aspect has already been discussed in one of the recent TfL takeover threads..

 

[Muzer]

I really hope that Stagecoach retain it. Having a semi-regular experience on both the Stagecoach run SWT and the FirstGroup run GWR, I would say that SWT is far better, especially when it comes to punctuality. As a side note, I believe today was the 20th anniversary of SWT.

It's always dubious looking at these sorts of statistics. The operator could have something to do with it, or it could just be that the SWT network is easier to keep to time than the GWR one. I suspect if you looked back into the BR days, even then the current SWT network would have been more reliable than the current GWR one. Correct me if I'm wrong, though, I don't have the data to hand!

 

[30909]

At the end of the day, I don't particularly care who runs the joint for the next few years. As long as I get paid at the end of each month, I'm not worried.

The only thing that I hope for is a better timetable, than the diatribe that we have now.

I go where angels fear to tread: a DIATRIBE is what you regularly post about the views of fellow forum members, 456s, Management, DfT, Passengers (Customers) and yes the timetable. The timetable itself is not a diatribe a continued discourse or disputation: an invective harangue.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Do some drivers sign routes used by the "reds" (metro) and the "blues" or do they only sign one or the other?

 

[Goldfish62]

It's always dubious looking at these sorts of statistics. The operator could have something to do with it, or it could just be that the SWT network is easier to keep to time than the GWR one. I suspect if you looked back into the BR days, even then the current SWT network would have been more reliable than the current GWR one. Correct me if I'm wrong, though, I don't have the data to hand!

Indeed, SWT have it quite lucky over the 20 years with no major infrastructure projects.

It's also difficult comparing their performance to the other south of the river TOCs. SWT has a single London terminus, plenty of flying junctions, a padded timetable and minimal TOC on TOC interaction.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

With all this talk of TFL taking over London suburban routes, I checked a map of SW trains network in relation to the Greater London boundary, Unlike Southeastern, where the 'Metro' routes are mostly inside London, SWT would not be a simple 'carve up'.
Of the current class 455 operated 'inner suburban' red fleet, the Hounslow Loop & Kingston Loop are completely inside, The Windsor & Shepperton branches outside, Hampton Court branch only just outside, Chessington branch wholly inside.
The Epsom/Leatherhead/Dorking/Bookham/Effingham Jct/Guildford lines plus the 'stoppers' on the main line from Woking into Waterloo are outside, all these lines are worked by one fleet, I don't pretend to have any insight into diagramming but suspect most interwork and all are maintained at Wimbledon.
Not surprising then that DFT want the new franchise awarded ASAP, before a future London Mayor tries to make a grab!

Where to start on this.

The notional TfL network is no secret. A detailed map was published in last year's London Assembly report on rail devolution. The criteria are simple, being the inner suburban network which has a terminus within or just outside Greater London, thus includes Windsor and Weybridge via Staines services, but not Guildford via Cobham.

And I'd be interested to know the logic behind the fantasy that DfT wants to award the franchise asap to keep TFL away from it just a couple of weeks after both organisations announced their partnership for rail devolution in London.

I'm not going to waste my time explaining why the franchise was not extended to 2019 as this has been covered on numerous occasions.

 

[TEW]

Do some drivers sign routes used by the "reds" (metro) and the "blues" or do they only sign one or the other?

There is quite a bit of crossover. Dividing crews up for a TfL takeover would be inefficient and I imagine would require more crews. Suburban crews can currently be used to divert long distance trains via alternative routes due to engineering works to. SWT may have to train extra crews on diversionary routes, and allow route refreshers, which will have a cost too.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Do some drivers sign routes used by the "reds" (metro) and the "blues" or do they only sign one or the other?

Depends on the depots concerned. Outer depots have very limited if not zero suburban route knowledge, the nearer you get to London, the more it gets. However conversely, the number of crews putting in for outer depots increases.

For example Bournemouth/Fratton/Sarum generally won't know any suburban routes or diversionary routes other than those they require outside of London, although SOME but not all Fratton drivers do know via Cobham, there would be a problem if they got sent that way and then they subsequently had an issue between Effingham and Surbiton, as they don't know via Epsom.

It'll be interesting to see what happens when TfL starts to take on the suburban network. I'll be putting in for an outer depot when my next move is available.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I go where angels fear to tread: a DIATRIBE is what you regularly post about the views of fellow forum members, 456s, Management, DfT, Passengers (Customers) and yes the timetable. The timetable itself is not a diatribe a continued discourse or disputation: an invective harangue.

The timetable is rubbish and doesn't work, it's all about the quantity and not about the quality, it's slower than steam days in many cases.

If you don't like the criticism levelled at you, then perhaps you should do something about it.

456s are known to be a problem and cause of a significant rise in cancellations, due to traction and door faults. Pieces of junk that should be consigned to the scrapyard, which were forced onto SWT by DfT.

Management need to learn tact and diplomacy when dealing with their own staff, that's why so many staff and managers are quitting.

Passengers are often rude and ignorant and don't/won't listen to what you tell them, so they can get on with it. Not my fault if they break a train which they regularly do by jamming the doors or deficate, urinate or vomit all over it, smash thing's. Trains generally don't break themselves.

And DfT an nasty organisation that couldn't run a booze up in a brewery.

If you don't like the truths, perhaps you shouldn't avail yourself of them.

 

[northwichcat]

Technically I think it was Transport Scotland who threw the spanner in the works on this one and not Abellio.

Possibly. Transport Scotland accepted Abellio's bid and then went on to change the rolling stock requirements (Abellio had proposed an all-Sprinter DMU fleet.) Apparently this latest change is due to Borders passenger loadings being higher than expected so it could be Abellio or/and Transport Scotland who wanted to revised rolling stock plans as a result of that.

 

[3141]

I like the way the First Group statement says they have "a strong track record in delivering passenger growth, as well as capacity and infrastructure upgrades". They boasted about having delivered passenger growth ten years ago when they were bidding for the South Western franchise the last time, though in fact passenger numbers had increased everywhere. Now they're implying they are behind the infrastructure upgrades in Great Western.

I don't think bidders will be much worried by the prospect of losing some suburban services to TfL. SWT make more money from the long-distance services than they do from the suburban ones, and the operation of an intensive suburban serve on a complex group of routes must be a difficult task..

 

[swt_passenger]

The timetable is rubbish and doesn't work, it's all about the quantity and not about the quality, it's slower than steam days in many cases.

As you keep saying. However the point being made quite clearly by the earlier poster, 30909, was that 'diatribe' is not actually a word that you can use to describe a timetable.

 

[RichardN]

As you keep saying. However the point being made quite clearly by the earlier poster, 30909, was that 'diatribe' is not actually a word that you can use to describe a timetable.

Maybe he means "debacle"?

 

[Pumbaa]

Regardless of what he meant, the timetable is only going to get busier.

If they did as Harley wants, I'm sure they won't need as many drivers, and going by how unhappy he seems to be with his employer, I'm sure his application for redundancy will be first across the line.

 

[Matt Taylor]

SOME but not all Fratton drivers do know via Cobham, there would be a problem if they got sent that way and then they subsequently had an issue between Effingham and Surbiton, as they don't know via Epsom.

Core routes for drivers at Fratton are Waterloo via Worplesdon and Eastleigh, Botley to Southampton via Netley & via Swaythling. Poole, Romsey and the New Line are in the upper links. Guards sign all routes.

 

[HH]

The thing that interests me is why only First wanted to take on Stagecoach. I'm guessing that people were put off by two things:

1. Stagecoach will be a hard incumbent to beat (they wouldn't have known individually it would come down to a 1 on 1 as well, so would have expected 2 further competitors).
2. There's a lot of risk inherent in the franchise - so winning it might not mean a happy ending. DfT should have taken steps to reassure bidders on areas they have no control over.

I don't think that DfT have managed this well at all. Only two bidders is going to place them under all sorts of pressure.

 

[infobleep]

Recent Successful Franchise awards (Scotrail, C2C, Southern/Thameslink, Northern, TPE,) have all involved commitments to source new trains, (Watch this space for Anglia?), Southwest Trains has a mostly modern fleet, (the oldest Class 455s are to be re-equiped with new electric 'drives') leaving the diesel 158s & 159s as the oldest stock - built '89 - 93, so now around 25-27 years old.
New 5 car 707s are on order & will cascade 458s onto the Reading line to allow future 10 car operation, in turn cascading 450s to allow longer trains elsewhere.
A commitment to future 10 car suburban operation (after Waterloo rebuilding) with the 24 456s coupled up to the fleet of 91 455s, would, allowing for maintenance spares, mean @ 20+ 8 car 455 units continuing to run as 8 car only.
I note Stagecoach has recently called for future Stock proposals from train builders including for SWT, 3 sub lots of 'Electric' and 'Self powered' trains of between 60 & 200 units of various different carriage lengths.
So its looks as if S/C are thinking of a future replacement for the 158/9s
(Bi-Modes anyone?) as well as additional electric stock in various forms to run maximum length trains on all lines.

Thus has already been proposed and planned. So surely South West Trains could talk about what's going to happen but not what they think should happen as it is going to happen.

Equally First can say what is planned, via work South West Trains has already started and was planned during South West Trains time but they can't say what they would like to happen as it's already been planned.

I'm I right in thinking this.

What could First do to improve things beyond what is already planned?

If they did win it, would they call it Great South Western?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Indeed, SWT have it quite lucky over the 20 years with no major infrastructure projects.

It's also difficult comparing their performance to the other south of the river TOCs. SWT has a single London terminus, plenty of flying junctions, a padded timetable and minimal TOC on TOC interaction.

I personally think there should have already been major infrastructure projects on South West Trains route, given how busy and popular it is.

I also wonder is a short term franchise of 7 years better than a much longer one of say 20 years? If it's to short companies won't want to do much but if it's too long wouldn't they just need to the franchise agreement and not much change happen. Perhaps should would mean 4 years or below and 7 is about right.

To be fair South West Trains are introducing new stock and wasn't that mid franchise?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Depends on the depots concerned. Outer depots have very limited if not zero suburban route knowledge, the nearer you get to London, the more it gets. However conversely, the number of crews putting in for outer depots increases.

For example Bournemouth/Fratton/Sarum generally won't know any suburban routes or diversionary routes other than those they require outside of London, although SOME but not all Fratton drivers do know via Cobham, there would be a problem if they got sent that way and then they subsequently had an issue between Effingham and Surbiton, as they don't know via Epsom.

It'll be interesting to see what happens when TfL starts to take on the suburban network. I'll be putting in for an outer depot when my next move is available.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The timetable is rubbish and doesn't work, it's all about the quantity and not about the quality, it's slower than steam days in many cases.

If you don't like the criticism levelled at you, then perhaps you should do something about it.

456s are known to be a problem and cause of a significant rise in cancellations, due to traction and door faults. Pieces of junk that should be consigned to the scrapyard, which were forced onto SWT by DfT.

Management need to learn tact and diplomacy when dealing with their own staff, that's why so many staff and managers are quitting.

Passengers are often rude and ignorant and don't/won't listen to what you tell them, so they can get on with it. Not my fault if they break a train which they regularly do by jamming the doors or deficate, urinate or vomit all over it, smash thing's. Trains generally don't break themselves.

And DfT an nasty organisation that couldn't run a booze up in a brewery.

If you don't like the truths, perhaps you shouldn't avail yourself of them.

Well there is one thing you can't be accused of and that's being an armchair critic!