Online appeal at penaltyservices.co.uk

[Lexon24]

I was given a penalty notice yesterday travelling from Bryn to Wigan North Western, the station I was travelling from doesn't have a ticket Office but does have a ticket dispenser inside a shelter. The shelter was occupied by a group of youths who weren't on there best behaviour (swearing, smoking etc) so I didn't feel safe using the ticket machine. I explained this to the man operating the ticket barrier at Wigan and he said I could appeal after he'd issued his penalty notice. When I went on the website to register my appeal (I checked and double checked my notice number) I got the message they couldn't find that notice number with that surname. There is no phone number to ring and appealing by post would take considerable time maybe longer than I actually have to appeal. Sorry for the long winded message and any advice would be much appreciated.

 

[Elecman]

What penalty notice did you get issued with? Can you upload a copy with your personal details redacted?

 

[Gloster]

It is possible that the data has not yet been uploaded from the member of staff’s machine to the central system. This sometimes takes a day or so to do.

 

[Lexon24]

It was a Penalty fare notice from Northern Rail for £50.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Apr 2025 ==

It is possible that the data has not yet been uploaded from the member of staff’s machine to the central system. This sometimes takes a day or so to do.

Ok thankyou. I will keep checking on the website.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Apr 2025 ==

What penalty notice did you get issued with? Can you upload a copy with your personal details redacted?

It was a £50 fine if paid within 21 days from Northern rail.

 

[Haywain]

The shelter was occupied by a group of youths who weren't on there best behaviour (swearing, smoking etc) so I didn't feel safe using the ticket machine.

I don't think you're going to find that is considered valid grounds for an appeal.

 

[Lexon24]

I don't think you're going to find that is considered valid grounds for an appeal.

I guess I will find out, then again £50 is a small price to pay when the alternative could be a trip to the local A&E.

 

[Pushpit]

It's not going to be easy to appeal this Penalty Fare. when it goes live. First round appeals are almost always denied regardless of justifications. Maybe the third appeal, where there is independent oversight, could be more fruitfall.

In terms of the bylaws you are either going to be arguing that the ticketing machines were effectively not in working order. And / or an appeal via bylaws 5, 6, 12 and 13 to say that you were in an impossible position to comply. I would give it a go, you have little to lose. I suspect you would have a stronger case if you tried to find a railway official, or use the Help button, to register the issue at the first safe opportunity.

 

[Lexon24]

It's not going to be easy to appeal this Penalty Fare. when it goes live. First round appeals are almost always denied regardless of justifications. Maybe the third appeal, where there is independent oversight, could be more fruitfall.

In terms of the bylaws you are either going to be arguing that the ticketing machines were effectively not in working order. And / or an appeal via bylaws 5, 6, 12 and 13 to say that you were in an impossible position to comply. I would give it a go, you have little to lose. I suspect you would have a stronger case if you tried to find a railway official, or use the Help button, to register the issue at the first safe opportunity.

Thanks for your help. By the 3rd appeal I would be over the 21 day threshold so if unsuccessful would the fine double from £50 to £100?

 

[Gloster]

Was their a guard on the train? If there was and you drew their attention to the youths your situation would have been strengthened. Or you could point them out and request a ticket from them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Apr 2025 ==

Thanks for your help. By the 3rd appeal I would be over the 21 day threshold so if unsuccessful would the fine double from £50 to £100?

The clock stops at each appeal, but you still need to deal with matters promptly.

 

[WesternLancer]

I guess I will find out, then again £50 is a small price to pay when the alternative could be a trip to the local A&E.

I think you should make an Appeal, but you need to be prepared to do that at each 3 appeal stages. You should perhaps get your appeal wording checked here before you submit it. You could draft your wording whilst waiting for the site to allow you to submit it.

The clock is stopped on the prompt payment discount deadline whilst Appeals are considered.

Unfortunately however, Appeals have to be based on the fact that the Penalty fare was incorrectly issued as per the legislation, and I doubt the legislation will specify an exemption for using the ticket machine because you felt unsafe to use it - though you very much have my sympathy.

With hindsight I suspect you would have been in a better position if after boarding you had actively gone to find he train guard, explained the situation, and actively asked them to sell you a ticket for the reasons concerned. A guard on the train will probably know stations where youths hang out like this, may have even seen them and might be happy to sell you that. the remote Appeals processing company will, I fear, care little about things like that and simply focus on the beaurocratic process of whether you were issued with one correctly or not.

On a separate matter it may be worth contacting Northern Customer services about youths hanging around and intimidating people at the station, and indeed report it to BTP on the 'see it say it sorted' text number. You would at least have a record of that to add to your appeal.

Could be helpful for next time as of course some of that is water under the bridge now....tho nothing to stop you reporting it in general now since the incident was yesterday so it's still fresh. I would certainly be doing this if you felt the behaviour was intimidating enough to stop legitimate passengers from using the machine, which it was in your case.

As I say, you have my sympathy.

 

[Lexon24]

Was their a guard on the train? If there was and you drew their attention to the youths your situation would have been strengthened. Or you could point them out and request a ticket from them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Apr 2025 ==



The clock stops at each appeal, but you still need to deal with matters promptly.

I didn't see a guard on the train, that's not to say there wasn't a guard, the journey only takes 6 minutes so may not have had time to check.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Apr 2025 ==

I think you should make an Appeal, but you need to be prepared to do that at each 3 appeal stages. You should perhaps get your appeal wording checked here before you submit it. You could draft your wording whilst waiting for the site to allow you to submit it.

The clock is stopped on the prompt payment discount deadline whilst Appeals are considered.

Unfortunately however, Appeals have to be based on the fact that the Penalty fare was incorrectly issued as per the legislation, and I doubt the legislation will specify an exemption for using the ticket machine because you felt unsafe to use it - though you very much have my sympathy.

With hindsight I suspect you would have been in a better position if after boarding you had actively gone to find he train guard, explained the situation, and actively asked them to sell you a ticket for the reasons concerned. A guard on the train will probably know stations where youths hang out like this, may have even seen them and might be happy to sell you that. the remote Appeals processing company will, I fear, care little about things like that and simply focus on the beaurocratic process of whether you were issued with one or not.

On a separate matter it may be worth contacting Northern Customer services about youths hanging around and intimidating people at the station, and indeed report it to BTP on the 'see it say it sorted' text number. You would at least have a record of that to add to your appeal.

Could be helpful for next time as of course some of that is water under the bridge now....tho nothing to stop you reporting it in general now since the incident was yesterday so it's still fresh. I would certainly be doing this if you felt the behaviour was intimidating enough to stop legitimate passengers from using the machine, which it was in your case.

As I say, you have my sympathy.

Thankyou very much for your reply it's greatly appreciated. Late last year I did contact BTP (the text number) regarding the same station as youths were climbing onto the track and throwing things at each other like drink cans and bottles. Luckily I could buy a ticket that day as they weren't in the shelter. I have seen Police (not BTP) walking on to the station a few times so I'm guessing other people have reported things as well. I will submit an appeal and get a draft underway as you suggested.

 

[WesternLancer]

I didn't see a guard on the train, that's not to say there wasn't a guard, the journey only takes 6 minutes so may not have had time to check.

Yes, I can see the issue. I think all Northern trains have guards. If you can't use a ticket machine for certain specified reason then you don't have to seek out the guard (but are required to buy a ticket 'at the first available opportunity') but those reasons won't include the problem you had I fear, so seeking the guard out might have been a wise idea, even with the very short journey duration. Water under the bridge now of course.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Apr 2025 ==

I didn't see a guard on the train, that's not to say there wasn't a guard, the journey only takes 6 minutes so may not have had time to check.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Apr 2025 ==


Thankyou very much for your reply it's greatly appreciated. Late last year I did contact BTP (the text number) regarding the same station as youths were climbing onto the track and throwing things at each other like drink cans and bottles. Luckily I could buy a ticket that day as they weren't in the shelter. I have seen Police (not BTP) walking on to the station a few times so I'm guessing other people have reported things as well. I will submit an appeal and get a draft underway as you suggested.

Some good advice up thread on what basis to focus your appeal.

Good that in the past you have tried to report such anti social behaviour, even if that is not solved, if people don't report such things there's little to no hope that it will ever be tackled....

 

[Honestviews]

If you do appeal I would start by saying you are appealing under para 16 (3)(d) of the the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018.


(d)there are compelling reasons why, in the particular circumstances of the case, the appellant should not be liable to pay the penalty fare.

Then set out a brief summary of why you have a compelling reason. You may wish to address the fact as to why you didn't buy a ticket on the train.

 

[furlong]

But also just appeal (same content under two headings) as no facilities so not issued in accordance with the regs (has some procedural advantages over the other category). Separately contact the company asking them to make sure they preserve CCTV as it might be required for the appeal - it should show you attempting but failing to access them.

 

[6Gman]

If you do appeal I would start by saying you are appealing under para 16 (3)(d) of the the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018.


(d)there are compelling reasons why, in the particular circumstances of the case, the appellant should not be liable to pay the penalty fare.

Then set out a brief summary of why you have a compelling reason. You may wish to address the fact as to why you didn't buy a ticket on the train.

Personally, I think that "I felt unsafe accessing the machine because of the presence of intimidating and unruly youths" very much falls into the category of a "compelling reason" not otherwise set out in the regulations.

And given the short journey involved not seeking out the guard hardly seems unreasonable.

 

[Honestviews]

But also just appeal (same content under two headings) as no facilities so not issued in accordance with the regs (has some procedural advantages over the other category). Separately contact the company asking them to make sure they preserve CCTV as it might be required for the appeal - it should show you attempting but failing to access them.

Agree with this, no harm at all in appealing under two headings using the same facts.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Personally, I think that "I felt unsafe accessing the machine because of the presence of intimidating and unruly youths" very much falls into the category of a "compelling reason" not otherwise set out in the regulations.

And given the short journey involved not seeking out the guard hardly seems unreasonable.

We're just talking a 3-4 car EMU here - the guard would step out onto the platform to open the doors and would be visible. If this happens again I would say it would be prudent to talk to them before boarding. It may not be technically required, but it is always sensible to take the course of action most likely to be to your advantage whether technically required or not.

 

[AlterEgo]

The appeal should be made under the compelling reasons clause. There were facilities available, but the OP declined to use them for reasons they hope to present as compelling.

My personal view: I rather suspect this will be an unsuccessful appeal, because "there were people near the ticket machine I don't like the look of" probably doesn't reach the bar for the panel.

However, if the OP uploads a copy of the notice with their details removed, there may be something fatally noncompliant about the notice or how it was filled in which renders it a slam dunk appeal, rather than relying on (what in my view is) an outside chance on the compelling reasons angle.

 

[Lexon24]

Thanks to everyone who has replied, it's greatly appreciated and taken on board.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Apr 2025 ==

The appeal should be made under the compelling reasons clause. There were facilities available, but the OP declined to use them for reasons they hope to present as compelling.

My personal view: I rather suspect this will be an unsuccessful appeal, because "there were people near the ticket machine I don't like the look of" probably doesn't reach the bar for the panel.

However, if the OP uploads a copy of the notice with their details removed, there may be something fatally noncompliant about the notice or how it was filled in which renders it a slam dunk appeal, rather than relying on (what in my view is) an outside chance on the compelling reasons angle.

Thanks for your reply. I've subscribed to your Youtube channel.