Ongoing issues with Northern 195s - Significant shortforms resulting

[Bungle965]

2-car 195 on the Manchester which has a more frequent service).

You're asking for trouble doing this, you'd end up with severe overcrowding and a performance issue with the guard having to use the crowded train procedure at a lot of stations.

You also have the ongoing TRU works which means that often the Calder Valley service is the only one running between Manchester and Leeds.

To me, Northern needs to do more with yield management on the Calder Valley, they still routinely have very cheap AP/APOD available on services which they know are going to be short formed.

 

[voyagerdude220]

You're asking for trouble doing this, you'd end up with severe overcrowding and a performance issue with the guard having to use the crowded train procedure at a lot of stations.

I suspected that might be the case.

 

[paulmch]

Could somebody elaborate on the crowded train procedure?

 

[voyagerdude220]

To me, Northern needs to do more with yield management on the Calder Valley, they still routinely have very cheap AP/APOD available on services which they know are going to be short formed.

I strongly agree with you. I think the entire Northern network, not just the Calder Valley needs to have a massive rethink regarding how the company implements AP/APOD/sale tickets.

E.g. A month or two back Northern had a £2 sale. They claimed they would only offer these tickets on less crowded services, yet routinely offered them on a few peak time trains which are well known to be severely overcrowded even when they're formed of their booked number of carriages.

Also they often offer cheaper AP tickets on services which are routinely near capacity, whilst only offering more expensive singles on services which are often lightly loaded.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Nov 2025 ==

Could somebody elaborate on the crowded train procedure?

I'm guessing the train crew could potentially ask Northern Control to remove stops from their train to try to ease overcrowding.

 

[dodecahedron67]

Could somebody elaborate on the crowded train procedure?

Because of the way the 195s are designed with their Guard Operating Panels (GOPs) being diagonally opposite in a carriage, guards can’t always get to a GOP.

If a service is full and standing and a guard cannot get to a door with a GOP, they must egress whatever door they can get to, reset that egress, walk down the platform to a door with a panel, egress that door from the outside and then use that GOP like normal. Takes forever and a lot of Northern guards thinks it’s a pain in the backside from what I’ve heard.

 

[Bungle965]

Because of the way the 195s are designed with their Guard Operating Panels (GOPs) being diagonally opposite in a carriage, guards can’t always get to a GOP.

If a service is full and standing and a guard cannot get to a door with a GOP, they must egress whatever door they can get to, reset that egress, walk down the platform to a door with a panel, egress that door from the outside and then use that GOP like normal. Takes forever and a lot of Northern guards thinks it’s a pain in the backside from what I’ve heard.

Unless procedures have changed recently it also requires a call to the Duty Control Manager, given the rise in short forms it can’t be much fun for them either!

 

[tfw756rider]

To me, Northern needs to do more with yield management on the Calder Valley, they still routinely have very cheap AP/APOD available on services which they know are going to be short formed.

I strongly agree with you. I think the entire Northern network, not just the Calder Valley needs to have a massive rethink regarding how the company implements AP/APOD/sale tickets.

Also they often offer cheaper AP tickets on services which are routinely near capacity, whilst only offering more expensive singles on services which are often lightly loaded.

What do AP and APOD stand for?

 

[Starmill]

What do AP and APOD stand for?

Advance purchase and advance purchase on the day.

 

[tfw756rider]

Advance purchase and advance purchase on the day.

Many thanks.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

How busy are the trains between Leeds and Manchester Victoria which use 2x158s? Could Northern potentially swap thing around to ensure more capacity is given to the York to Blackpool services, which tend to be very busy even with a 3-car 195? (put the 4car 158 on the Blackpool diagram, 2-car 195 on the Manchester which has a more frequent service).

They don’t use 2-158s on Leeds - Victoria anyway, apart from the stopping Wigan - Leeds via Brighouse service which run with either 3 or 4 cars.

 

[Bungle965]

They don’t use 2-158s on Leeds - Victoria anyway, apart from the stopping Wigan - Leeds via Brighouse service which run with either 3 or 4 cars.

Realtime Trains | 2I06 0717 Leeds to Wigan Wallgate | 08/11/2025

Real-time train running information for 2I06 0717 departure from Leeds to Wigan Wallgate on 08/11/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

In theory

 

[Starmill]

the stopping Wigan - Leeds via Brighouse service which run with either 3 or 4 cars.

Sadly the 195 crisis has put paid to that idea.

 

[td97]

Realtime Trains | 2I06 0717 Leeds to Wigan Wallgate | 08/11/2025

Real-time train running information for 2I06 0717 departure from Leeds to Wigan Wallgate on 08/11/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

In theory

In reality

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Y03937/2025-10-16/detailed

Link demonstrates a 2-car short-formed Wigan to Leeds service losing 12-13 minutes of time due to overcrowding.

 

[Bungle965]

In reality

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Y03937/2025-10-16/detailed

Link demonstrates a 2-car short-formed Wigan to Leeds service losing 12-13 minutes of time due to overcrowding.

Yes, perhaps I wasn't clear although in theory it's meant to be 2x158 or a 158/7 in reality it's a bit of a struggle these days

 

[voyagerdude220]

They don’t use 2-158s on Leeds - Victoria anyway, apart from the stopping Wigan - Leeds via Brighouse service which run with either 3 or 4 cars.

I didn't say 2 car 158s? I said 4-car 158s.

 

[scrapy]

Blackpool crews no longer sign 158s so would not be posssible unless any unit diagrams are solely staffed by non Blackpool crews.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Blackpool crews no longer sign 158s so would not be posssible unless any unit diagrams are solely staffed by non Blackpool crews.

That's a good point which I didn't think about.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I didn't say 2 car 158s? I said 4-car 158s.

Oh yes, 2x158, I read it as 2-158 for some reason.

How busy are the trains between Leeds and Manchester Victoria which use 2x158s?

 

[paulmch]

Because of the way the 195s are designed with their Guard Operating Panels (GOPs) being diagonally opposite in a carriage, guards can’t always get to a GOP.

If a service is full and standing and a guard cannot get to a door with a GOP, they must egress whatever door they can get to, reset that egress, walk down the platform to a door with a panel, egress that door from the outside and then use that GOP like normal. Takes forever and a lot of Northern guards thinks it’s a pain in the backside from what I’ve heard.

What a faff! From my limited observations of Northern it seems they're very hesitant to allow guards to dispatch from the back/middle cab of a unit(s) even though it's very common in other parts of the country.

 

[skyhigh]

What a faff! From my limited observations of Northern it seems they're very hesitant to allow guards to dispatch from the back/middle cab of a unit(s) even though it's very common in other parts of the country.

Unfortunately cab dispatch is essentially impossible on anything other than 170s as there are no guard door controls fitted (possibly 323s too? I have never been in the cab of one).

 

[Starmill]

You can indeed work from the rear / centre rear cab of 323, assuming you can see from there.

 

[Calderdale Ian]

Wheelsets have been an issue pretty much since the units were new.

Essentially they are wearing faster than expected and the contractor is taking much longer than expected to refurbish them which means there is a shortage. Brexit hasn't helped as the contractor is based in Italy and exporting high-value components for skilled work and re-importing them is apparently a paperwork nightmare.

More spare wheelsets would be useful to improve the spares float but won't really help massively as it'll just mean a bigger queue of parts waiting for refurb. What's really needed is for the contractor to up the processing speed or additional capacity to be found.

Power packs - again, been an issue for a long time but seems to be getting worse again. This is due to a replacement manufacturer being found for an internal bearing. They promised an identical part but the part supplied wears faster and is susceptible to premature catastrophic failure. Because of this all engines are under increased monitoring and some are being pulled to prevent damage.

There were/are also issues with a shortage of hoses and engine mounts.

You'd think CAF would have a UK based contractor in the supply chain to enable the relatively quick turn around of units needing repairs,parts and refurbished wheelsets rather than waiting for parts to be shipped across from Europe post Brexit . If CAF are to win any more UK based train orders (heaven forbid !!!) such an award should be conditional upon this .

Another lamentable day of 195 short forms on the Calder Valley , currently 6 solo 195/0 on Leeds - Manchester Victoria - Chester ...the 1657 from Manchester Victoria to Leeds on Northern's journey planner showing as missing out it's stop at Rochdale due to more trains than usual needing repairs .....presumably the solo 195/0 is too small for the number of joining passengers at Manchester . 1712 Leeds to Manchester Victoria and 1741 Leeds to Chester also best avoided as short formed 195/0 .

 

[1D53]

The issues with running 158s on the Blackpool is that Blackpool crews no longer sign the traction. Running them on Leeds to Manchester via Bradford is also an issue as all the diagrams end up at Chester at some point, Liverpool crews have a lot of Chester to Vic work and again don't sign 158s. If you want to free up 195s then the only real way is Lincoln/Nottingham and Leeds - York services or running Sprinters on the Hope Valley.

 

[js1000]

I have had related to me that there's a catalogue of issues which is currently severely impacting on Northern 195s at the moment. Apparently there are issues with the power packs, brake pads and even the wheels. Seemingly all three are wearing at much faster rates than anticipated causing issues with spare parts and the ability to keep on top of repairs. Wheels are seemingly the latest issue to the point that replacements are needed from CAF but there's no current indication on when they'll be delivered.

This would seem to be corroborated by the gigantic number of shortforms on Northern at the moment, there's 159 showing on Journey Check at the time of writing. Not all those are 195s but if there are unavailable 195s then obviously sets are going to be being split to provide other units to cover as well as doubled up 195s being split themselves.

Well at least this would rule CAF out of the new tender process based on quality and/or availability of parts. A few Sprinters are out of service at the minute too. Northern maintenance crew being kept busy.

 

[Ribbleman]

The issues with running 158s on the Blackpool is that Blackpool crews no longer sign the traction. Running them on Leeds to Manchester via Bradford is also an issue as all the diagrams end up at Chester at some point, Liverpool crews have a lot of Chester to Vic work and again don't sign 158s. If you want to free up 195s then the only real way is Lincoln/Nottingham and Leeds - York services or running Sprinters on the Hope Valley.

All the more puzzling as to why 3-car 195s are being used on some turns up to Corkickle rather than the usual 156s from Heaton’s allocation.The fact that they can’t run through from Carlisle should not prevent them being used from the Barrow end.

 

[skyhigh]

Well at least this would rule CAF out of the new tender process

It doesn't.

 

[1D53]

All the more puzzling as to why 3-car 195s are being used on some turns up to Corkickle rather than the usual 156s from Heaton’s allocation.The fact that they can’t run through from Carlisle should not prevent them being used from the Barrow end.

Because of the difficulties of getting the units back to Heaton for maintenance. A couple of sets have come down to Newton Heath to help but it still brings inefficiency into the plan.

 

[Bantamzen]

It can't help that there seem to be regular infrastructure issues along the Calder Valley, often resulting in cancellations and really packed trains, especially when served by just a 2 car unit.

 

[Starmill]

All the more puzzling as to why 3-car 195s are being used on some turns up to Corkickle rather than the usual 156s from Heaton’s allocation.The fact that they can’t run through from Carlisle should not prevent them being used from the Barrow end.

Is it puzzling? It was well covered at the time that the closure had trapped only a tiny handful of units, all of which had been expected to return to usual work by the Tuesday. They needed to be cycled through Newton Heath temporarily to keep them going, but if you remember it was Thursday before Network Rail announced the tunnel wouldn't reopen. Given they wouldn't have needed to go to Newton Heath for a three day closure this causes some serious problems. Increasing that number obviously takes additional work, plus the fact that they need to be physically moved from Heaton to Newton Heath first, which isn't something that will happen overnight. I'm sure that this element will be sorted out soon, though.

There was also pressure to deploy four cars to Ashington diagrams, which is not something the resources were ever planned out for, but which has happened anyway. I do think it was perhaps a mistake to allow the use of the occasional four cars to Ashington with some of this temporary float, as there will be no possible way to meet this expectation now from December.

 

[Mat17]

If you want to free up 195s then the only real way is Lincoln/Nottingham and Leeds - York services or running Sprinters on the Hope Valley.

That would be a blessing, especially on a Saturday, the Lincoln trains are heaving, diagonal door control panels cause havoc on this line.