Ongoing issues with Northern 195s - Significant shortforms resulting

[Calderdale Ian]

Does anyone know why there are so many Class 195/0 short forms at the moment on the Calder Valley route, please?

Granted the 195s seem shall we say temperamental; this midweek there have often been 3 or 4 solo 195/0 on the Leeds-Manchester-Chester diagrams, but this morning 6 of 9 are a solo 195/0 which is a record low.

Today, 2 of 5 Leeds-Blackpool diagrams are solo 195/0 too, which has mostly been the case midweek (2 of 6 York-Blackpool 195/0).

Credit to Northern's control doing their juggling act and keeping the wheels turning albeit with short forms, but this week the 195 availability seems to have hit new lows, culminating in today's showing.

 

[Lucy1501]

I’m not a huge expert on the specific allocations, but there has been some movement of units due to the Whitehaven Tunnel closure.

The Cumbrian Coast is exclusively 156s, however on a temporary basis they’re running 195s as far as Whitehaven Corkickle, which is requiring more units than usual.

Perhaps the Calder Valley is where they’ve been borrowed from?

 

[M60lad]

Also dependant on the day and time there seems to be quite a number of them stabled at Newton Heath Depot, sometimes I've gone past Newton Heath Depot and counted about 6 or 7 stabled in various places and other times at the same time only about 2 or 3.

 

[Calderdale Ian]

Also dependant on the day and time there seems to be quite a number of them stabled at Newton Heath Depot, sometimes I've gone past Newton Heath Depot and counted about 6 or 7 stabled in various places and other times at the same time only about 2 or 3.

Yes , on Tuesday when I was heading home and noted an unusually high number of short forms on the Calder Valley route where I live , I had a look thru the 195 fleet on Real time trains and about 75 percent of the total fleet was allocated to services : eight 195/1 and six 195/0 unallocated : 43 out of 57 units allocated (excluding long term absentee 104) .

Looks like they're having fun & games with 195015 , developed a fault Tuesday taken out of use , back out a few days later , issues at Hebden Bridge yesterday then again this morning running as a pair ...looks like they've cut their losses and sent it to Newton Heath for another go .

 

[Moonshot]

There have been any number of these requiring spare parts which haven't been available for one reason or another. The short forms are not really causing problems though.....still plenty of room on the trains

 

[ainsworth74]

I have had related to me that there's a catalogue of issues which is currently severely impacting on Northern 195s at the moment. Apparently there are issues with the power packs, brake pads and even the wheels. Seemingly all three are wearing at much faster rates than anticipated causing issues with spare parts and the ability to keep on top of repairs. Wheels are seemingly the latest issue to the point that replacements are needed from CAF but there's no current indication on when they'll be delivered.

This would seem to be corroborated by the gigantic number of shortforms on Northern at the moment, there's 159 showing on Journey Check at the time of writing. Not all those are 195s but if there are unavailable 195s then obviously sets are going to be being split to provide other units to cover as well as doubled up 195s being split themselves.

 

[Starmill]

A friend of mine travelled on the 0657 from Manchester Victoria to Leeds today and said people were left behind from Sowerby Bridge owards with a two car 195.

 

[skyhigh]

Wheels are seemingly the latest issue to the point that replacements are needed from CAF but there's no current indication on when they'll be delivered.

Wheelsets have been an issue pretty much since the units were new.

Essentially they are wearing faster than expected and the contractor is taking much longer than expected to refurbish them which means there is a shortage. Brexit hasn't helped as the contractor is based in Italy and exporting high-value components for skilled work and re-importing them is apparently a paperwork nightmare.

More spare wheelsets would be useful to improve the spares float but won't really help massively as it'll just mean a bigger queue of parts waiting for refurb. What's really needed is for the contractor to up the processing speed or additional capacity to be found.

Power packs - again, been an issue for a long time but seems to be getting worse again. This is due to a replacement manufacturer being found for an internal bearing. They promised an identical part but the part supplied wears faster and is susceptible to premature catastrophic failure. Because of this all engines are under increased monitoring and some are being pulled to prevent damage.

There were/are also issues with a shortage of hoses and engine mounts.

 

[Rail Quest]

I have had related to me that there's a catalogue of issues which is currently severely impacting on Northern 195s at the moment. Apparently there are issues with the power packs, brake pads and even the wheels. Seemingly all three are wearing at much faster rates than anticipated causing issues with spare parts and the ability to keep on top of repairs. Wheels are seemingly the latest issue to the point that replacements are needed from CAF but there's no current indication on when they'll be delivered.

Question on this: do the 331s use the same Wheels as the 195? If so, why might the 195 fleet be doing noticeably worse than their EMU equivalent in terms of wheel wear or part delivery? I get brake pads would wear slower on the 331s due to increased use of dynamic breaking, but I don't see why the wheels would wear differently.

 

[Ribbleman]

Given the current problems with 195 availability, why is the situation being made worse by some being employed north of Barrow instead of the usual 156s? As Heaton based 156 sets cannot currently work south of Whitehaven, the service from Carlisle requires fewer units. Could the surplus sets not be temporarily transferred to Newton Heath to ease the position there?

 

[Starmill]

Given the current problems with 195 availability, why is the situation being made worse by some being employed north of Barrow instead of the usual 156s? As Heaton based 156 sets cannot currently work south of Whitehaven, the service from Carlisle requires fewer units. Could the surplus sets not be temporarily transferred to Newton Heath to ease the position there?

Isn't that what has already been done? There could be a small handful more although that doesn't seem like one or two units will really make a difference.

 

[Bungle965]

Of course what this does also highlight is what an absolute nightmare the crowded train procedure is on the 195s which extends dwell times at stations a few more minutes at a time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given the current problems with 195 availability, why is the situation being made worse by some being employed north of Barrow instead of the usual 156s? As Heaton based 156 sets cannot currently work south of Whitehaven, the service from Carlisle requires fewer units. Could the surplus sets not be temporarily transferred to Newton Heath to ease the position there?

Isn't it in part because the south section is mostly being worked as a through service from Manchester for which 100mph is required on the WCML now?

 

[yorksrob]

It seems that the current stock of DMU's on Northern is stretched to the point that its having difficulty dealing with adverse circumstances.

Is there any likelihood of us getting any spare 15* from Wales or the West country to build up a bit of a safety buffer ?

 

[SuspectUsual]

Wheelsets have been an issue pretty much since the units were new.

Essentially they are wearing faster than expected and the contractor is taking much longer than expected to refurbish them which means there is a shortage. Brexit hasn't helped as the contractor is based in Italy and exporting high-value components for skilled work and re-importing them is apparently a paperwork nightmare.

More spare wheelsets would be useful to improve the spares float but won't really help massively as it'll just mean a bigger queue of parts waiting for refurb. What's really needed is for the contractor to up the processing speed or additional capacity to be found

What’s the root cause of the faster than expected wear though?

Surely identifying and trying to resolve that is preferable to mitigating the impact?

Or is it just a mistake in the original calculations?

 

[Soft Hands]

Given the current problems with 195 availability, why is the situation being made worse by some being employed north of Barrow instead of the usual 156s? As Heaton based 156 sets cannot currently work south of Whitehaven, the service from Carlisle requires fewer units. Could the surplus sets not be temporarily transferred to Newton Heath to ease the position there?

There are now just three 156 diagrams South of Whitehaven. Three Heaton 156's are working off Newton Heath to cover them. 421, 485 and 491. However 491 is "fresh" off a C6 Wolverton overhaul and has had several reliability issues, which hasn't helped matters! I agree, at least one, possibly two more 195 diagrams, would be better covered by 156's. One of the 195 diagrams has always been "odd", finishing at 15.10hrs at Barrow, anyway! Five NH unit diagrams are, from December if not now already, booked single units instead of pairs. Two Headbolt Lanes, one Southport, one Buxton and one Oxford Road to Lime Street. This appears to be to release more units, largely 156's, for C6 body overhauls?

 

[vicbury]

It seems that the current stock of DMU's on Northern is stretched to the point that its having difficulty dealing with adverse circumstances.

Is there any likelihood of us getting any spare 15* from Wales or the West country to build up a bit of a safety buffer ?

Spare from the West Country? We've got 2 car trains operating between Cardiff and Portsmouth on a daily basis

 

[yorksrob]

Spare from the West Country? We've got 2 car trains operating between Cardiff and Portsmouth on a daily basis

Aren't you ditching a load of 150's ?

 

[vicbury]

Aren't you ditching a load of 150's ?

I've no idea sorry. We was we the passengers, not we the GWR! I'll let those who are more informed comment further.

 

[Starmill]

Aren't you ditching a load of 150's ?

No. Nothing from GWR.

Transport for Wales 150s are not fit for anything but parts as they're out of miles. No 158s, from anywhere, for over a year still. The only thing that may be available is 156s at ScotRail?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Nov 2025 ==

There are now just three 156 diagrams South of Whitehaven. Three Heaton 156's are working off Newton Heath to cover them. 421, 485 and 491. However 491 is "fresh" off a C6 Wolverton overhaul and has had several reliability issues, which hasn't helped matters! I agree, at least one, possibly two more 195 diagrams, would be better covered by 156's. One of the 195 diagrams has always been "odd", finishing at 15.10hrs at Barrow, anyway! Five NH unit diagrams are, from December if not now already, booked single units instead of pairs. Two Headbolt Lanes, one Southport, one Buxton and one Oxford Road to Lime Street. This appears to be to release more units, largely 156's, for C6 body overhauls?

I am fairly sure that's already happened yes as part of the repairs to corrosion and other things which is discussed in several other threads.

 

[RUK]

Oh Lord - let’s hope that CAF don’t win any more tenders.

 

[yorksrob]

No. Nothing from GWR.

Transport for Wales 150s are not fit for anything but parts as they're out of miles. No 158s, from anywhere, for over a year still. The only thing that may be available is 156s at ScotRail?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Nov 2025 ==


I am fairly sure that's already happened yes as part of the repairs to corrosion and other things which is discussed in several other threads.

156's would be the best of the bunch to be fair.

 

[Starmill]

Isn't it in part because the south section is mostly being worked as a through service from Manchester for which 100mph is required on the WCML now?

Presumably that was originally to reduce 156 mileage yes, while they couldn't return to Heaton. Obviously they have had to temporarily out-base in Newton Heath now so that situation has slightly moved on.

 

[1D53]

What’s the root cause of the faster than expected wear though?

In part, doing more miles to cover long term absence. Being two three cars down for so long means the remainder doing more miles. Then the part issues make more problems, the remainder do more miles which creates more wear which creates more shortages and the situation just gets worse and worse.

 

[SuspectUsual]

In part, doing more miles to cover long term absence. Being two three cars down for so long means the remainder doing more miles. Then the part issues make more problems, the remainder do more miles which creates more wear which creates more shortages and the situation just gets worse and worse.

Ah right, so on a per mile basis they’re not wearing through any quicker than was expected? My interpretation of the original post had been that it was some sort of design or build issue

 

[Chris172]

Is northern going through the last issues that WMR had with their 196s earlier this year?

 

[Starmill]

Ah right, so on a per mile basis they’re not wearing through any quicker than was expected? My interpretation of the original post had been that it was some sort of design or build issue

It sounds like it's both to me. As in more wear per mile and more miles.

 

[Caaardiff]

It seems that the current stock of DMU's on Northern is stretched to the point that its having difficulty dealing with adverse circumstances.

Is there any likelihood of us getting any spare 15* from Wales or the West country to build up a bit of a safety buffer ?

TFW are still utilising a lot of their remaining 150's. Although there aren't many diagrammed on the mainline, they are still regularly appearing on the mainline covering for out of service 197s, as well as the standard Valleys work. I doubt TFW will be able to spare any in the near future.

CAF currently have the ETCS 197's meant for the Cambrian stepping to cover for long term stopped non-ETCS 197's, so fleet availability is often met.
Whether TFW can sub-lease 150's when the 398 trams come in on the Valleys is a different question and will be based on remaining leases and C exams.

 

[darloscott]

Thought I would do a deep dive into Friday's allocations for you all to see the situation...

3-car
NH701 (YRK-BPN) 195114
NH702 (YRK-BPN) 195112
NH703 (WDM-OXN) 195131
NH704 (WDM-OXN) non-alloc (6-car with NH713 until 1800 - short form 3-car)
NH705 (BIF-MIA) 195122 (6-car with NH726 until 1850 - short form 3-car)
NH706 (BIF-MIA) 195132
NH707 (MAN-SHF) 195129
NH708 (MAN-SHF) 195127
NH709 (MAN-SHF) 195120
NH711 (MAN-NMC) 195103
NH712 (BIF-MIA) 195121
NH713 (WDM-OXN) 195115 (6-car with NH705 until 1800 - short form 3-car)
NH714 (YRK-BPN) 195119
NH715 (YRK-LDS) 195116
NH716 (LDS-CTR) 195130
NH717 (YRK-BPN) 195113
NH718 (YRK-BPN) 195022 (short form 2-car)
NH719 (YRK-BPN) 195009 (short form 2-car)
NH720 (LDS-CTR) 195109
NH721 (LDS-CTR) 195133
NH722 (WAC-MCO) 195005 (peak only diagram)
NH723 (LIV-WAC) 195126
NH724 (LIV-WAC) 195117
NH725 (BIF-MIA) 195118
NH726 (BIF-MIA) non-alloc (6-car with NH705 until 1850 - short form 3-car)
NH727 (BIF-MIA) 195110
NH728 (BIF-MIA) 195102
NH729 (LDS-CTR) 195101

Not used: 104 105 106 107 108 111 123 124 125

2-car
NH751 (LDS-MCV) 195023 (4-car with NH757)
NH752 (LDS-NOT) 195024
NH753 (LDS-NOT) 195017
NH754 (LDS-NOT) 195016
NH755 (LDS-MCV) 195002 (4-car with NH765)
NH756 (LDS-NOT) 150268/195012 (started SHF 0918 with 150268, swap for 195012 at SHF 1137)
NH757 (LDS-MCV) 195004 (4-car with NH751)
NH758 (LDS-NOT) 158849
NH759 (LDS-NOT) 195006
NH760 (YRK-LDS) 195015
NH761 (LDS-NOT) 195013
NH762 (LDS-NOT) 195014
NH763 (MAN-RSH) 195001
NH764 (LDS-NOT) 195008
NH765 (LDS-MCV) 195011 (4-car with NH755)
NH766 (LDS-NOT) 195018
NH767 (LDS-MCV) 195019 (4-car with NH770)
NH768 (LDS-MCV) 195128 (4-car with NH771 - short form 3-car)
NH769 (LDS-MCV) 195020 (4-car with NH772)
NH770 (LDS-MCV) 195003 (4-car with NH767)
NH771 (LDS-MCV) 195128 (4-car with NH768 - short form 3-car)
NH772 (LDS-MCV) 195010 (4-car with NH769)

Not used:
005 007 009 021 022 025

 

[voyagerdude220]

How busy are the trains between Leeds and Manchester Victoria which use 2x158s? Could Northern potentially swap thing around to ensure more capacity is given to the York to Blackpool services, which tend to be very busy even with a 3-car 195? (put the 4car 158 on the Blackpool diagram, 2-car 195 on the Manchester which has a more frequent service).