one stop, no ticket

[ian959]

So you assume anybody who lives near a station should know the workings of a permit to travel machine?

Nice twisting of what I said. I said if you know the machine takes nothing less than 5p coins. I make no presumption of EVERYONE living near a station being so knowledgeable. A regular traveller however I would say SHOULD know this and if they don't have the required coins then it would be a good indication of intending to travel without paying their fare.

After all I live 12,000 kilometres away from the country and I know what a permit to travel machine is for and that it tales coins 5p and larger. I would not see it as unreasonable for someone travelling regularly to know it, nor any of the relevant rules regarding the requirement to use such a machine.

 

[jon0844]

Surely most people have at least 5p on them? I accept some people may wish to pay by card, and some people may want to pay by notes because they don't have enough coins - but even in both of these situations, I am sure there would be some shrapnel in the pockets that would be accepted by a permit machine given that 5p is enough!

Perhaps PTT machines could be made to issue permits with no money inserted, as a proof of boarding, and made compulsory to carry in order to avoid any sort of penalty. The only issue might be kids thinking it funny to print millions of them, but I am sure there are ways around that - perhaps by introducing a short delay that would make it quite tiresome.

 

[jb]

Nice twisting of what I said. I said if you know the machine takes nothing less than 5p coins. I make no presumption of EVERYONE living near a station being so knowledgeable. A regular traveller however I would say SHOULD know this and if they don't have the required coins then it would be a good indication of intending to travel without paying their fare.

If we dispensed with the ridiculous notion of trying to frame rules that account for imponderables such as what people were aware of, knew, should know, "felt", "wished", had in their pockets or didn't, or any other such hooey, there would be no need for twisting of words.

In other words, enforce the rules as they are now constituted, with a few caveats.

 

[Antman]

Nice twisting of what I said. I said if you know the machine takes nothing less than 5p coins. I make no presumption of EVERYONE living near a station being so knowledgeable. A regular traveller however I would say SHOULD know this and if they don't have the required coins then it would be a good indication of intending to travel without paying their fare.

After all I live 12,000 kilometres away from the country and I know what a permit to travel machine is for and that it tales coins 5p and larger. I would not see it as unreasonable for someone travelling regularly to know it, nor any of the relevant rules regarding the requirement to use such a machine.

I'm not sure that I've twisted anything:roll:

Ironically I live just a mile or two from a station with a permit to travel machine and until somebody mentioned it I'd forgotten that these machines don't take 1p or 2p coins.

The chances are that I would have the correct coinage on me to buy a permit but I couldn't say for certain. I mean it wouldn't be top of my priority list. As I said I'm sure common sense would prevail and I'm sure SET accept that they are going to lose some revenue by not installing ticket machines at lightly used stations. On the Medway Valley Line there are permit to travel machines at most stations but hardly anybody seems to use them, they just pay the conductor who is up and down the train.

 

[bb21]

The problem is that if you only have coppers and notes on you, it would be the train company who have to prove that you did this intentionally, and it won't be an easy job.

 

[jon0844]

There are often times when people unwittingly drop themselves in it, by opening their wallet and revealing a card (or drivers licence when they claimed to be 15, or indeed just when showing they have no ID) and so it would be risky to insist you had no loose change and then accidentally show otherwise if given the chance to pay later on!

 

[Antman]

The problem is that if you only have coppers and notes on you, it would be the train company who have to prove that you did this intentionally, and it won't be an easy job.

Exactly and the onus of proof should always be with the accuser
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There are often times when people unwittingly drop themselves in it, by opening their wallet and revealing a card (or drivers licence when they claimed to be 15, or indeed just when showing they have no ID) and so it would be risky to insist you had no loose change and then accidentally show otherwise if given the chance to pay later on!

Well of course it is possible that the passenger may have aquired change from another passenger during the course of the journey is it not?

 

[bb21]

Well of course it is possible that the passenger may have aquired change from another passenger during the course of the journey is it not?

You might find that using this excuse might be more trouble than you anticipated.

 

[Antman]

You might find that using this excuse might be more trouble than you anticipated.

Just covering every possibility, I'm sure somebody intent on avoiding payment would have the sense to keep any coinage out of sight when opening their wallet.

 

[jon0844]

Yes, but many people have been caught out by not keeping things hidden - or simply not thinking quick enough to hide a card/driving licence when they open their wallet to offer to pay by cash, having claimed they couldn't buy a ticket before because a TVM didn't take cash and they didn't have any cards... or saying they had no ID before opening the wallet to take out some money to try and pay for their ticket... etc.

I've seen these things happen and it's quite amusing.