one stop, no ticket

[Antman]

Thing is, it's not that simple. What if there is only a ticket vending machine and you want to pay by RTV? What if the clerk says that the ticket you want doesn't exist when it actually does? How about if there's a permit to travel machine but your only coins are 1p and 2p (and you have enough money in notes)? What if you want a split? What if there's a gigantic queue? And so on...

If you've only got 1p/2p in coins then thats all you put in the permit to travel machine, there is no minimum requirement and if you've got no coins at all you don't bother. Certainly on the Medway Valley line the PTT machines are rarely used and buying a ticket on board or at the destination is the norm.

What gets me about this 'rule' about buying a ticket before boarding is that it puts the onus fully on the passenger and not the TOC to provide adequate facilities to buy a ticket.

On another issue I don't think it is up to the guard to be warning passengers about buying tickets first, it will just lead to arguments.

 

[Squaddie]

The ideal solution, of course, is to make it absolutely mandatory to buy a ticket before boarding a train, with no exceptions*, and for every station to have functioning ticket machines that allow you to buy any type of ticket from any station to any other station, and which accept coins, notes and credit cards at all times. This is how it works in some other countries, where the passenger is absolutely clear of his/her obligations.

Of course, this would cost money. I also believe that it is not in the British nature to operate such a system, given the high levels of vandalism and attempted fare-avoidance, and a general corporate reluctance to maintain infrastructure.

*Other than when the ticket machine is, exceptionally and verifiably, out of order.

 

[Antman]

The ideal solution, of course, is to make it absolutely mandatory to buy a ticket before boarding a train, with no exceptions*, and for every station to have functioning ticket machines that allow you to buy any type of ticket from any station to any other station, and which accept coins, notes and credit cards at all times. This is how it works in some other countries, where the passenger is absolutely clear of his/her obligations.

Of course, this would cost money. I also believe that it is not in the British nature to operate such a system, given the high levels of vandalism and attempted fare-avoidance, and a general corporate reluctance to maintain infrastructure.

*Other than when the ticket machine is, exceptionally and verifiably, out of order.

In principal perhaps but there are always going to be machines not working for whatever reason and surely on rural lines where it would never be viable to install machines surely a conductor/guard selling tickets on the train is the only option?

 

[jb]

Thing is, it's not that simple. What if there is only a ticket vending machine and you want to pay by RTV? What if the clerk says that the ticket you want doesn't exist when it actually does? How about if there's a permit to travel machine but your only coins are 1p and 2p (and you have enough money in notes)? What if you want a split? What if there's a gigantic queue? And so on...

This is only really a problem if one's default position is "Only pay when the TOC can wring the money out of my paws and not before". It's only in a pretty screwed up universe that is nowhere near the one most passengers inhabit that one could seriously discuss ticket purchasing issues, with a straight face, being framed around "what do we do for those who want to board at unmanned stations and pay by RTVs".

 

[Antman]

This is only really a problem if one's default position is "Only pay when the TOC can wring the money out of my paws and not before". It's only in a pretty screwed up universe that is nowhere near the one most passengers inhabit that one could seriously discuss ticket purchasing issues, with a straight face, being framed around "what do we do for those who want to board at unmanned stations and pay by RTVs".

The whole attitude seems to be that everybody is a potential fare dodger, imagine a supermarket treating all its customers as potential shoplifters and insisted on checking till receipts as they left the store.

 

[jb]

The whole attitude seems to be that everybody is a potential fare dodger, imagine a supermarket treating all its customers as potential shoplifters and insisted on checking till receipts as they left the store.

I'm afraid you are not alone in failing to think this through.

 

[Antman]

I'm afraid you are not alone in failing to think this through.

Well do tell me where I'm going wrong

 

[DaveNewcastle]

The whole attitude seems to be that everybody is a potential fare dodger, . . . . .

I'm afraid you are not alone in failing to think this through.

Indeed.

It's quite simply that "the whole attitude" is based on the premiss that passengers have a ticket before travelling. Everything else flows from that.

I clearly recall that the driver for change in reducing staffing levels (which included closing ticket offices) was from the public and the government; the opposition was from within the rail industry; the provisions for 'buying a ticket at the first available opportunity' overcame the potential for a passenger to become an unintended 'fare dodger'.

It's not a matter of complexity of issues, it's a matter of from where you approach the issues. There is no presumption that everybody is a potential fare dodger, and there is no need for complex provisions to cater for a complex range of possible and hypothetical scenarios.

 

[NSEFAN]

Well do tell me where I'm going wrong

Shop analogies are a bit dodgy when comparing to the trains. One is providing goods, the other is providing a service.

Perhaps a restaurant with at-seat service is a better comparison?

 

[silencio]

In principal perhaps but there are always going to be machines not working for whatever reason and surely on rural lines where it would never be viable to install machines surely a conductor/guard selling tickets on the train is the only option?

I agree with Squaddie, at least as one potential solution.

As for the quoted post above, under what circumstances would it not be "viable" to install a machine? Are you talking about much less used stations when you say rural? They should still exist as without it you're not providing the same rules and standards for passengers which would be unfair.

As for RTVs being used, Ive never seen one, but surely machines could be programmed to accept vouchers/discounts. Apply codes to each RTV that are held in.a database against their value and when these codes are fed into the TVM the amount is reduced from total payment. Or are we talking cost again?

 

[jon0844]

The whole attitude seems to be that everybody is a potential fare dodger, imagine a supermarket treating all its customers as potential shoplifters and insisted on checking till receipts as they left the store.

Well, some cash and carries I used to be a member of did - to everyone. Tesco (and others) will do so randomly if you self scan.

Whether we like it or not, everyone IS a potential criminal and that's why people are monitored when shopping on the assumption that they might be about to steal.

And if you don't like thinking that every move you make is being watched by someone at the front security desk (or another one in a back room) then perhaps you shouldn't go to a supermarket, or indeed any shop.

 

[Antman]

Well, some cash and carries I used to be a member of did - to everyone. Tesco (and others) will do so randomly if you self scan.

Whether we like it or not, everyone IS a potential criminal and that's why people are monitored when shopping on the assumption that they might be about to steal.

And if you don't like thinking that every move you make is being watched by someone at the front security desk (or another one in a back room) then perhaps you shouldn't go to a supermarket, or indeed any shop.

People are often watched on CCTV walking down the street but that isn't the issue, in shops resturants etc customers are generally treated with respect and I don't see why rail users should be treated any differently. At some stations in my locality there are no facilities to buy tickets and nobody seems to have an answer to how this fits in with any rule about having a ticket before travelling.

 

[silencio]

Put facilities in place...?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . I don't see why rail users should be treated any differently.

As I think has been clarified already, analogies with consumer services or with consumer retailling are irrelevant. The agreement to carry rail passengers is a contract; a contract in which the railway companies are required to convey ticket-holding passengers.

At some stations in my locality there are no facilities to buy tickets and nobody seems to have an answer to how this fits in with any rule about having a ticket before travelling.

I thought that this too had been covered, but for clarity, its not exactly 'a rule' as an element of the Contract - the Railways have a contractural duty to convey passengers who have a ticket (a ticket which is evidence of the Contract having been formed).

The arrangement in cases where staff are no longer provided in booking offices at smaller stations is that passengers may be carried, but must buy a ticket at the earliest opportunity. We could call that 'a rule'.

Put facilities in place...?

As I mentioned above, it was passengers and the government who wished the industry to operate with less personnel. (and sadly, it appears to be members of the public rather than the industry who vandalise those unnattended machines on unstaffed stations).

 

[Antman]

So how do you define the earliest opportunity?

If I board a train at Eynesford (Kent) where there are no ticket selling facilities only a permit to travel machine but I don't have any coins, only notes and credit card. I travel to Elephant & Castle without a ticket and when I get there a ticket check is taking place. Would my explanation for not having a ticket be acceptable? Or would a RPI say I should have got off at the next station (Swanley) and got one there even though it would mean a half hour wait for the next train?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Shop analogies are a bit dodgy when comparing to the trains. One is providing goods, the other is providing a service.

Perhaps a restaurant with at-seat service is a better comparison?

So you would ask diners to pay in advance just in case they did a runner after consuming the meal? I don't think that would go down too well

 

[Darandio]

So you would ask diners to pay in advance just in case they did a runner after consuming the meal? I don't think that would go down too well

Isn't that why NSEFAN was saying analogies between the two are dodgy? Two completely different situations.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

So how do you define the earliest opportunity?

If I board a train at Eynesford (Kent) where there are no ticket selling facilities only a permit to travel machine but I don't have any coins, only notes and credit card. I travel to Elephant & Castle without a ticket and when I get there a ticket check is taking place. Would my explanation for not having a ticket be acceptable? Or would a RPI say I should have got off at the next station (Swanley) and got one there even though it would mean a half hour wait for the next train?

It's not my definition that matters here, so I will offer the Railways' definition - not that I am familiar with the specific station you've mentioned.

No. There is no expectation to alight at an intermediate station in order to buy a ticket.
However, if the origin of the journey is a station with some sort of facilities, and you do not use them (or if I understand your example correctly, you know the facilites are there and the range of payment it will accept, but despite that prior knowledge, you don't obtain the means of payment within that range) then the passenger will not have paid their fare at the earliest opportunity.

I will add my own interpretation, and that is by not obtaining the accepted coins for a PERTIS machine where a passenger is already aware that only a limited range of coins will be accepted, then that person travels at their own hazard.

 

[Flamingo]

So you would ask diners to pay in advance just in case they did a runner after consuming the meal? I don't think that would go down too well

Well, in my experience that is exactly what McDonalds, KFC, BurgerKing et al do! (I really need to improve my diet!).

 

[Antman]

Well, in my experience that is exactly what McDonalds, KFC, BurgerKing et al do! (I really need to improve my diet!).

I didn't think such junkfood outlets offered an at table service

 

[Flamingo]

I didn't think such junkfood outlets offered an at table service

Not always, but they see the colour of your money before you get to eat

 

[NSEFAN]

So you would ask diners to pay in advance just in case they did a runner after consuming the meal? I don't think that would go down too well

I know of restaurants that do indeed ask for money before the food is handed over, presumably because of people doing a runner like you said.

 

[Flamingo]

I know of restaurants that do indeed ask for money before the food is handed over, presumably because of people doing a runner like you said.

I've known restaurants where they ask upfront as you'd never pay after tasting it, but I digress...

 

[Antman]

I've known restaurants where they ask upfront as you'd never pay after tasting it, but I digress...

You and NSEFAN must eat in some pretty rough places

 

[Flamingo]

You and NSEFAN must eat in some pretty rough places

You'd be amazed

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I once came across a restaurant which (well, it looked more like a canteen) which required a deposit to be made on taking the cutlery to your table!

Funnily, it was near a station which didn't have a staff canteen. But that fact will have been a coincidence.

 

[jon0844]

It probably won't surprise people to learn that a lot of places suffer a lot of loss of glasses, cutlery etc.

Analogies comparing the railway with restaurants and retail are always going to be dodgy, but I guess there is one similarity - people think it's okay to skip paying for a train ticket if they can, and probably also think it's fine to stick a few spoons in their bag - or a nice glass.

I wonder how people rate their crimes. Robbing a bank would be a no no for just about everyone, but nicking some cutlery or getting a free train ride - all okay as it's no big deal and 'they can afford it'.

Parking on double yellows for a few minutes, a disabled bay because you're only nipping into Tesco for some milk.. all fine too.

 

[island]

If you've only got 1p/2p in coins then thats all you put in the permit to travel machine

which will spit it out as the smallest they take is 5p!

I endorse DaveNewcastle's point that a passenger putting himself in a position where he knows that ticket facilities existing at a station are limited to a Permit to Travel and does not obtain the necessary coin, he is taking a risk.

 

[ian959]

I would go further to suggest that if you know that the permit to travel machine does not take anything less than 5p coins, if you arrive at the station knowing that you cannot obtain a permit to travel then that is demonstrating an intent to travel without paying your fare. I would trust that an RPI would show some common sense if you did not have an address near the station but if not then you have some shaky ground to deal with.

 

[Antman]

which will spit it out as the smallest they take is 5p!

I endorse DaveNewcastle's point that a passenger putting himself in a position where he knows that ticket facilities existing at a station are limited to a Permit to Travel and does not obtain the necessary coin, he is taking a risk.

Fair point about 5p being the minimum, but if somebody hadn't used the station before they wouldn't know about a permit to travel machine let alone what coins it took.

I suspect most TOC's are realistic (SET certainly seem to be) and accept that if they don't provide proper ticket selling facilities then people won't have tickets, its probably more cost effective to accept a certain loss of revenue than install ticket machines or open ticket offices at stations with low useage.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I would go further to suggest that if you know that the permit to travel machine does not take anything less than 5p coins, if you arrive at the station knowing that you cannot obtain a permit to travel then that is demonstrating an intent to travel without paying your fare. I would trust that an RPI would show some common sense if you did not have an address near the station but if not then you have some shaky ground to deal with.

So you assume anybody who lives near a station should know the workings of a permit to travel machine?

The counter argument of somebody arriving with credit card and/or £10 note at the ready but the machine not accepting such payments is more accurate.

In reality I suspect common sense would apply.

 

[island]

Fair point about 5p being the minimum, but if somebody hadn't used the station before they wouldn't know about a permit to travel machine let alone what coins it took.

Many staff aren't able to figure out how to deal with Permits to Travel either. I once had paid just over half my fare on a Permit to Travel and took it in at my ungated destination to pay the rest. The clerk stared at it for a minute, keyed in the details on his TIS to sell the ticket, looked at the price, and threw the permit in the bin and told me not to worry about it.