one stop, no ticket

[snail]

It would only be ambiguous if passengers are refused entry to trains without a ticket. Try it at a station with ticket barriers and you are likely to be refused. Quoting that sentence to barrier staff would not get you through to the train at a Northern station or anywhere they check tickets.

Elsewhere you are free to ignore the obligation at your own risk.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Its hardly rocket science but people still choose to break the rules and take the chance. And then whine on here when they are caught out. I don't think that will never change.

 

[Flamingo]

A suprisingly large number of people believe you can buy tickets on trains even if the office is open. Literature from TOC's often does nothing to sort this issue and neither does the fact I can't remember the last time I saw a train manager inform a passenger they were in the wrong. I am often on XC and FGW services from large stations with long opening hours and the train managers happily sell Anytime tickets onboard, further perpetuating the belief among many of the travelling public that this is correct and normal.

I will sell a ticket when I find somebody without one, as that is my only realistic option - I can't issue a PF, I am not going to delay the train at Reading to chuck the passenger off (and then read innumerable complaints and posts on this forum about "poor customer services"), and a TIR requires the time-consuming (and dangerous) process of establishing their name and address.

I will ALWAYS point out to people the requirement to buy before boarding, and by not doing so, they have committed a bylaw offence and are now liable for a Bylaw prosecution. As a rule of thumb, out of every ten, five will respond with indignation that I dared question them (and three of them will say"But it's your job to come through and sell me a ticket), three will listen politely but have obviously heard it before, two will thank me and say they didn't realise, and one will turn out not to have any means of payment.

The most common tickets are Pad-Rdg (trains every 6-10 minutes maximum), the most common excuse "I was running for the train", despite the frequency, and in some cases, I have noticed the individuals having been on the train 20 minutes before departure (I can SMELL the ones without tickets when I walk through).

Paddington station has posters up on every platform, and automated announcements that there is a "Buy before you board" policy.

At this stage, the only thing that will prevent it is either putting ticket barriers on each platform (as you only find the people who didn't have time to buy a ticket on those platforms with no barriers) or putting RPI's onto the HST's and issuing PF's / Anytime tickets to all for a few months - but FGW does not want the complaints this would create.

Nobody thinks the railway is free. However, as I have argued many times on this forum, a significant number of people don't buy tickets because they are able to get onto the train without one, and it is not that they think they can buy on board, rather that they think there is a chance they won't have to buy one at all.

 

[pjnathanail]

I very rarely board trains without tickets, and I always pay my fare at some point during my trip before anyone asks!, but one recent example stuck in my mind. I was going from Nottingham to Newark and I checked realtimetrains before I went but looked at the service an hour earlier. Assuming it was a clock face timetable I arrives in plenty of time for that train, but it wasn't a clock face timetable so the train actually left 1 minute after I arrived at Nottingham. Due to fortuitous platforiming and a sprint I got the train with no ticket, was approached by a conductor and bought the off peak day return with no issue. Missing this train would have messed my day up, so would being prosecuted! Thoughts?

 

[pinguini]

I very rarely board trains without tickets, and I always pay my fare at some point during my trip before anyone asks!, but one recent example stuck in my mind. I was going from Nottingham to Newark and I checked realtimetrains before I went but looked at the service an hour earlier. Assuming it was a clock face timetable I arrives in plenty of time for that train, but it wasn't a clock face timetable so the train actually left 1 minute after I arrived at Nottingham. Due to fortuitous platforiming and a sprint I got the train with no ticket, was approached by a conductor and bought the off peak day return with no issue. Missing this train would have messed my day up, so would being prosecuted! Thoughts?

If you're checking the times of the trains in advance and know the specific service you want to check for, but choose to check an earlier one instead and subsequently make an assumption... well thats just silly.

 

[pjnathanail]

If you're checking the times of the trains in advance and know the specific service you want to check for, but choose to check an earlier one instead and subsequently make an assumption... well thats just silly.

I know, it was purely a silly mistake and one I don't make a habit of.
My point was that a conductor following the rules would have made me unhappy, even though he would have been totally justifiable to do so.

 

[jon0844]

How can missing an earlier train and then having to get the train you planned for mess up your day?

 

[pjnathanail]

How can missing an earlier train and then having to get the train you planned for mess up your day?

Sorry, I haven't been clear.
I looked up trains on realtimetrains, looked at an earlier one and assumed the times continued throughout the day when in fact they didn't. I got my planned train (the time of which I assumed incorrectly to be eight minutes later than it actually was) by the skin of my teeth but without a ticket, but missing it would have messed up my day.

 

[455driver]

I <snipped> was approached by a conductor and bought the off peak day return with no issue. Missing this train would have messed my day up, so would being prosecuted! Thoughts?

So you didnt think to go and find the conductor on the train, you waited for him to find you?

And before the usual suspects get on their high horse :roll:
I know you dont have to go looking for the conductor but by doing so shows that you had intended to buy a ticket in the first place.
I think that courtesy goes both ways, you find the conductor and get the cheap ticket, the conductor finds you sat there with no ticket and sells you the full price ticket.

 

[island]

I agree that is how it should be, but not how it currently is.

 

[pjnathanail]

So you didnt think to go and find the conductor on the train, you waited for him to find you?

And before the usual suspects get on their high horse :roll:
I know you dont have to go looking for the conductor but by doing so shows that you had intended to buy a ticket in the first place.
I think that courtesy goes both ways, you find the conductor and get the cheap ticket, the conductor finds you sat there with no ticket and sells you the full price ticket.

I considered approaching him before departure but I couldn't see him in the few seconds I had before boarding. Immediately after departure he came out of the rear cab and started checking tickets so I decided the best course of action was to wait until he arrived at my seat (I was in the middle of the two carriage 156 so I was not sitting as far away from him as possible, and it was a full train so I could not have sat any closer) as otherwise it would look like I was pushing in front of other people.

Had he not commenced a check soon after the journey started, I would have considered knocking on the back cab door to get his attention.

I was clearly showing my intent to pay as I had my cash (no funny payment methods etc) and I was buying a perfectly normal ticket so there was no possibility of me trying his good will if you see what I mean.

I would also point out that he perhaps didn't find me without a ticket and make me buy one, as soon as he looked in my direction I requested the ticket and proffered the cash-although its probably just semantics. There was no intent to avoid the fare and IMO no action that could have been construed as such (as I understand it just walking past a purchase opportunity is not intent to avoid the fare, just a bye law offence but I may be wrong.) It may have counted in my favour that Nottingham station is undergoing works currently so there are no ticket gates and a temporary ticket office that frequently has a large queue.

 

[sarahj]

Some passengers come up and see you, other passengers see you and go to another door, or even coach. Try and guess who gets a sympathetic hearing.
I've had someone say to me, the barriers were open, so i did not think I needed to buy a ticket before I boarded.

Just the other week, after I had sold a ticket, I reminded a pass that he should have bought one before he boarded (Lewes) as there was a open ticket office and machines. He went off into one, let slip he had come from polegate on the rail replacement bus, and when I pointed that out to him, he became personal, decided best practice, walk away. He also said he had. had to run fro the train, dispite him coming up to me 5 mins before departure asking me how long it would take to Brighton.

Last week I saw someone at Haywards Heath trying to get the barrier guy to let him thorugh as he would miss his train, I'll buy a ticket on board he said. The barrier guy pointed out the ticket office, machines and the frequency of trains to Brighton. Funny thing is the train this person wanted to buy a ticket on board was a FCC, as are all are(outside of rush hour trains to Brighton are ) with no guard. mmmmm

On some trains, ive known it for passengers who come up to the guard get a bit of a bounus.(?)

Anyway...

 

[Flamingo]

I have been known to give passengers who come find me a comp tea/coffee, or free upgrade, just to prove to them that honesty has unexpected bonuses on occasions!

 

[pjnathanail]

I have been known to give passengers who come find me a comp tea/coffee, or free upgrade, just to prove to them that honesty has unexpected bonuses on occasions!

I shall bear that in mind on FGW then, I do enjoy FC.
In your opinion should I have interrupted the guard during his check or sat and waited-bear in mind there was no time to check before departure as that was the whole reason I didn't have a ticket

 

[Flamingo]

I'd say always approach, even if they say "Go away, I'm busy", you will have made first contact. It makes an "Intent to avoid payment"accusation that much harder, and guards are people - there are very few who will not appreciate somebody making the effort, and will respond accordingly.

 

[pjnathanail]

I'd say always approach, even if they say "Go away, I'm busy", you will have made first contact. It makes an "Intent to avoid payment"accusation that much harder, and guards are people - there are very few who will not appreciate somebody making the effort, and will respond accordingly.

Fair enough, I will bear that in mind in the future

 

[island]

I shall bear that in mind on FGW then, I do enjoy FC.
In your opinion should I have interrupted the guard during his check or sat and waited-bear in mind there was no time to check before departure as that was the whole reason I didn't have a ticket

Don't interrupt the guard during dispatch, I would have said. Up until when the key comes out of the door panel he's probably concentrating.

 

[Flamingo]

Don't interrupt the guard during dispatch, I would have said. Up until when the key comes out of the door panel he's probably concentrating.

Fair point, I was thinking about inside the train.

 

[nibbles123]

Received my letter from East Midlands Trains Prosecution Department yesterday - £62.20 charge to cover admin cost and the cost of my ticket, with a stern warning not to do it again and a strong recommendation that I familiarise myself with the rules and regulations for travelling on Britain's rail network.

Thank you everyone who contributed to this post - my lesson is well and truly learned. I hope this information has been useful and serves as a warning to others.

 

[Antman]

I had a letter from the DVLA demanding £50plus or prosecution for allegedly not filling a form in correctly, I binned the letter and suprise suprise I wasn't prosecuted.

Its your decision but if you feel you were in the right I would offer to pay only the fare, assuming you didn't pay on the day?

People should not be scared of going to court (it often doesn't get that far anyway) as they will be given a fair hearing and any burden of proof always lays with the prosecution.

 

[Mojo]

People should not be scared of going to court (it often doesn't get that far anyway) as they will be given a fair hearing and any burden of proof always lays with the prosecution.

In the example of a prosecution under Byelaw 18, all the company needs to prove is that the customer was present on board a train where ticket issuing facilities existed, or where no permission was granted to travel without a ticket.

Given the OP has already admitted that he travelled, the Toc can easily prove that the ticket office/machines were available at Sheffield for the sale of a ticket, and that nobody allowed him to travel.

 

[Darandio]

I had a letter from the DVLA demanding £50plus or prosecution for allegedly not filling a form in correctly, I binned the letter and suprise suprise I wasn't prosecuted.

Its your decision but if you feel you were in the right I would offer to pay only the fare, assuming you didn't pay on the day?

People should not be scared of going to court (it often doesn't get that far anyway) as they will be given a fair hearing and any burden of proof always lays with the prosecution.

Poor, poor advice, especially given you are comparing a completely unrelated letter.

 

[Antman]

But the principal is much the same, by the letter of the law I was probably 'guilty' of filling in the aforementioned DVLA form wrongly but we all make mistakes.

I am not offering advice I am just saying what I would do, maybe its just me but I am not comfortable with letters being sent out demanding money or else, if I feel I am in the right I'll call their bluff and see if they want to prosecute me but each to their own opinion on that.

 

[ian959]

The principal is far from the same when you are talking about a strict liability offence under the Railway Byelaws. Ignore the request for payment in this case and it will go to court and the OP would be fined as there is no significant burden of proof upon the prosecution. Overall, the OP has done well out of what could be a costly mistake.

 

[hantsman1205]

But the principal is much the same, by the letter of the law I was probably 'guilty' of filling in the aforementioned DVLA form wrongly but we all make mistakes.

I am not offering advice I am just saying what I would do, maybe its just me but I am not comfortable with letters being sent out demanding money or else, if I feel I am in the right I'll call their bluff and see if they want to prosecute me but each to their own opinion on that.

Was this actually DVLA? Ref a sorn application?

 

[Antman]

Was this actually DVLA? Ref a sorn application?

No it was regarding a car that I had sold

 

[bb21]

The main problem with challenging a Byelaw prosecution is that it is almost impossible. There is very little burden of proof as others have stated.

Did you travel? Yes.
Did you hand over a valid ticket for inspection when requested? No.

Guilty. No intent needs to be proven.

That is all that is needed. Unfortunately the law is not very passenger-friendly if you like in this case.

 

[michael769]

I had a letter from the DVLA demanding £50plus or prosecution for allegedly not filling a form in correctly, I binned the letter and suprise suprise I wasn't prosecuted.

Its your decision but if you feel you were in the right I would offer to pay only the fare, assuming you didn't pay on the day?

I urge you to please not confuse members requesting help by conflating two completely unrelated issues. DVLA matters use quite different statutes from the ones that ToCs rely on.

ToCs have shown themselves to be perfectly happy to take folks in front of the courts and the courts have shown that they are more than willing to hand out guilty verdicts accompanied by stiff fines.

 

[455driver]

No it was regarding a car that I had sold

Try not taxing your new car and driving it on the road (similar to a byelaw 18 strick liability offence), get pulled over and ignore that letter!

See how far that attitude gets you!

 

[Antman]

Try not taxing your new car and driving it on the road (similar to a byelaw 18 strick liability offence), get pulled over and ignore that letter!

See how far that attitude gets you!

I'm not sure I see your point:roll: