one stop, no ticket

[nibbles123]

Got on a Northern train today at Sheffield. Going one stop to Meadowhall. I commute Worksop to Sheffield daily and routinely buy a season ticket (travel master for south yorkshire), and sometimes buy a daily return ticket on the train e.g. when my season ticket has expired and I'm going to be on leave for a few days in the near future. I made the assumption that I would be able to pay on the train to Meadowhall today. There was no conductor in sight. I alighted at Meadowhall and was stopped just off the platform by a rail operative and asked for my ticket. I explained I had intended to pay on the train and offered to pay there and then. The rail operative said I could not, that he had a process to follow and that I had broken the law. He then cautioned me!! I was mortified. He asked me a series of questions, took my name address and dob, and wrote everything I said down in a notebook. He said I would be contacted with a view to being prosecuted. I am absolutely horrified. Can someone please explain what is likely to happen now? I now recognise I acted naively but my intention was never to avoid payment.

 

[Urban Gateline]

Northern will send you a letter in the next few weeks (or months) requesting further details of the event. You'd be best off replying promptly and truthfully to that letter when you get it.

By the sounds of it you ignored perfectly good ticket issuing facilities at Sheffield and just jumped on the train, you knew you were going one stop so to me it looks like you chanced the fact that the conductor would not reach you! Then you got caught, if that RPI had not been there, would you have simply walked out of the station at Meadowhall without paying? If so then that shows intent to avoid payment of the fare.

 

[telstarbox]

Did he ask the question "If I had not stopped you, would you have left the station without buying a ticket?" or similar?

If so, what was your answer?

 

[455driver]

Not saying this is what the OP did but there is a huge problem of ticket-less travel between Sheffield (where there are ticket issuing facilities at every entrance) and Meadowhall hence the desire for barriers at Sheffield a couple of years ago.

Wait for the letter to see what you are being prosecuted for, it will either be-
A/ an £80 admin fee plus the fare dodged as a "dont do it again or else" measure.
B/ a prosecution using bye-law 18 (fine but no criminal record)
C/ a prosecution under the Regulation of Railways act (fine plus criminal record)
D/ no further action

If this is your first offence and you are not known to Northern Rail then A/ is by far the most likely thing to happen, you will just have to wait a couple of months for the letter, Northern prosecutions department seems to be rather busy at the moment.

 

[nibbles123]

My intention was to pay on the train, just like I usually do on my usual route. I did intend to pay but I can understand how this looks. Big lesson learned today. Thanks for your reply, I appreciate it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Did he ask the question "If I had not stopped you, would you have left the station without buying a ticket?" or similar?

If so, what was your answer?

No, he didn't ask me that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not saying this is what the OP did but there is a huge problem of ticket-less travel between Sheffield (where there are ticket issuing facilities at every entrance) and Meadowhall hence the desire for barriers at Sheffield a couple of years ago.

Wait for the letter to see what you are being prosecuted for, it will either be-
A/ an £80 admin fee plus the fare dodged as a "dont do it again or else" measure.
B/ a prosecution using bye-law 18 (fine but no criminal record)
C/ a prosecution under the Regulation of Railways act (fine plus criminal record)
D/ no further action

If this is your first offence and you are not known to Northern Rail then A/ is by far the most likely thing to happen, you will just have to wait a couple of months for the letter, Northern prosecutions department seems top be rather busy at the moment.

Thank you for your response, I'll wait and see what happens - and always buy a ticket in advance!

 

[Yew]

By the sounds of it you ignored perfectly good ticket issuing facilities at Sheffield and just jumped on the train, you knew you were going one stop so to me it looks like you chanced the fact that the conductor would not reach you! Then you got caught, if that RPI had not been there, would you have simply walked out of the station at Meadowhall without paying? If so then that shows intent to avoid payment of the fare.

By the sounds of it, the OP has read Northern rail's passenger charter and assumed they would keep to it.

If
you board a train without a ticket at a station where
ticket purchasing facilities are available the conductor
will only sell you the full price single or return fare and you
will not be entitled to any discounts or special terms
which would otherwise apply.

Unfortunately, Northern are more than happy to ignore this formal statement whenever it suits them.

 

[Urban Gateline]

By the sounds of it, the OP has read Northern rail's passenger charter and assumed they would keep to it.



Unfortunately, Northern are more than happy to ignore this formal statement whenever it suits them.

Yes the passenger charter may say that, but how many times have we discussed on this very forum that the NRCoC and Byelaws and RoR act supersedes anything that TOC passenger charters say regarding ticketing. Only the open access operators encourage purchase onboard whereas Northern, as others have said alot recently, have put up posters and are clamping down on ticketless travel from manned stations!

 

[Goatboy]

Yes the passenger charter may say that, but how many times have we discussed on this very forum that the NRCoC and Byelaws and RoR act supersedes anything that TOC passenger charters say regarding ticketing. Only the open access operators encourage purchase onboard whereas Northern, as others have said alot recently, have put up posters and are clamping down on ticketless travel from manned stations!

You can't defend it, the entire thing is a bit of a farce and makes it very ambiguous for the general public. Many people quite innocently believe they can buy a full fare ticket on a train and passengers charters support this.

If rail companies don't want this then fair enough but a useful first step is removing ambiguous statements from their own documentation!

 

[bb21]

I'm sorry to sound cynical but some things don't add up. If you commute from Worksop, why do you buy a Travelmaster when it is not even valid there?

Where did you start your journey? Did you start at Sheffield (which entrance?) or did you come in from further afield? Did you already have a ticket covering you to Sheffield?

 

[156441]

Fact of the matter is Goatboy that these revenue protection checks usually take place beyond a place in which the passenger can purchase a ticket on the destination station. So you've been given the chance to buy one AGAIN at the destination but you've ignored that as well! No sympathy I'm afraid.

(I should point out I don't know the layout of Medowhell just stating what usually happens at these revenue checks)

 

[gnolife]

Fact of the matter is Goatboy that these revenue protection checks usually take place beyond a place in which the passenger can purchase a ticket on the destination station. So you've been given the chance to buy one AGAIN at the destination but you've ignored that as well! No sympathy I'm afraid.

(I should point out I don't know the layout of Medowhell just stating what usually happens at these revenue checks)

I'm not sure where you're getting this from - at the stations that I am most familiar with (Man Airpt, Man Picc, Deansgate, Salfd Cresc (before refurb), Bolton, Stockport, Marple and Macclesfield) the manual barriers have been at the station exits, with a guy with an Avantix machine asking for tickets. Like you, I don't know what the situation at Meadowhall is, so am not really a lot of help in this respect.

 

[nibbles123]

Fact of the matter is Goatboy that these revenue protection checks usually take place beyond a place in which the passenger can purchase a ticket on the destination station. So you've been given the chance to buy one AGAIN at the destination but you've ignored that as well! No sympathy I'm afraid.

(I should point out I don't know the layout of Medowhell just stating what usually happens at these revenue checks)

I was stopped well before the ticket office at meadowhall so did not have opportunity to buy a ticket.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm sorry to sound cynical but some things don't add up. If you commute from Worksop, why do you buy a Travelmaster when it is not even valid there?

Where did you start your journey? Did you start at Sheffield (which entrance?) or did you come in from further afield? Did you already have a ticket covering you to Sheffield?

I commute from kiveton bridge which is the last station before the travelmaster border.

On the day in question I bought a single on the train from kiveton bridge to sheffield first thing in the morning. I did not know at the time if my family would collect me later from sheffield centre by car or if I was to meet them somewhere else - later in the day we agreed meadowhall.

Like I said, my intention was to buy a ticket on the train, as I habitually do when my travelmaster has expired and I'm not at work for a short time.

I was stopped by the revenue check just after alighting and well before the meadowhall ticket office.

 

[transportphoto]

So you left Sheffield station and then later in the day returned to the station to journey to Meadowhall? Is this understanding correct?

TP

 

[NSEFAN]

I was stopped well before the ticket office at meadowhall so did not have opportunity to buy a ticket.

But if there were ticket machines / ticket office facilities at Sheffield, why did you not buy the ticket there, before you boarded the train to Meadowhall?

The rules are that, if you join at a station with ticket-issuing facilities, then you must buy one before you get on the train. Whilst the guard might be happy to sell you a ticket during the journey, unfortunately the rules require the ticket to be bought at the earliest opportunity (even if there's a big queue for tickets).

 

[michael769]

By the sounds of it, the OP has read Northern rail's passenger charter and assumed they would keep to it.



Unfortunately, Northern are more than happy to ignore this formal statement whenever it suits them.

Is the same charter that says

If you are boarding at a station that has an open ticket
office, you must purchase your tickets before you get on
the train. This also applies if you are boarding at a station
equipped with a self service ticket machine. If the ticket
machine is not working, or you cannot use the machine,
or the ticket office is closed, you must buy a ticket from
the conductor on the train at the earliest opportunity. If
you board a train without a ticket at a station where
ticket purchasing facilities are available the conductor
will only sell you the full price single or return fare and you
will not be entitled to any discounts or special terms
which would otherwise apply. Where fraudulent travel is
involved it is our policy to seek criminal prosecution.

As part of our commitment to making sure that we
provide the service you expect, we need to make sure
that all our customers are paying the appropriate fare
for the journey they are making. In addition to our ontrain
conductors we also deploy ticket inspectors who
will make random checks of tickets. These staff are there
to demonstrate to our fare-paying customers that we are
doing everything possible to ensure others do not fail to
pay. Where there is evidence of an intention to avoid
payment we will seek criminal prosecution.

I fail to see how the above would lead a reasonable person to conclude that they can join a train at a staffed station without a ticket.

 

[185]

Devils Advocate here.....

If you are boarding at a station that has an open ticket
office, you must purchase your tickets before you get on
the train. This also applies if you are boarding at a station
equipped with a self service ticket machine. If the ticket
machine is not working, or you cannot use the machine,
or the ticket office is closed, you must buy a ticket from
the conductor on the train at the earliest opportunity. If
you board a train without a ticket at a station where
ticket purchasing facilities are available the conductor
will only sell you the full price single or return fare and you
will not be entitled to any discounts or special terms
which would otherwise apply. Where fraudulent travel is
involved it is our policy to seek criminal prosecution.

As said before in the thread this is a self-contradicting load of tripe. They either have it one way or the other.

IMO, this contradictory text invites people both honest and not to walk on minus a ticket and should be amended or removed asap.

 

[bb21]

I don't think it is contradictory at all. The first part you highlighted sets out the obligations of a passenger. That said, they cannot force someone to purchase a ticket before boarding, especially at "open" stations. The second part explains what one will be charged if one is sold a ticket. There is no compulsion that the guard must sell a ticket.

 

[talltim]

It depends which bit is first in the charter. If you get to the bit that says you can buy on the train then you've found the info you want and would stop reading there

 

[Parham Wood]

I don't think it is contradictory at all. The first part you highlighted sets out the obligations of a passenger. That said, they cannot force someone to purchase a ticket before boarding, especially at "open" stations. The second part explains what one will be charged if one is sold a ticket. There is no compulsion that the guard must sell a ticket.

I have to disagree with you here. From the charter quotes it clearly seems to say the guard will sell you a ticket. A person who has no intention of fraudulent travel would assume that they would be sold a ticket and not consider that they would be considered as travelling fraudulently. The charter clearly has contradictions in it which could lead to members of the public who are not so au fait with all the regulations assuming they can buy a ticket on a train. The fact that on some trains guards sometimes sell tickets to both people who have boarded from stations where they cannot buy a ticket and also to those who could have bought a ticket makes it all the more confusing for the public.

Not everyone understands what all these travel notices mean. They are also misleading as I recall a large notice on Westbury station about ticketless travelling saying something like "you may be prosecuted" - I can't remember the wording, but it does imply that if you believe you have no intention of committing fraud then you would not be penalised/prosecuted. The "may" should be replaced by " will" to make the message clear.

I am totally against fare dodging but I also think the penalties are unfairly weighted against accidental ticket irregularities e.g. over sleeping. I would be miffed but would accept a penalty proportional to the ticket price in these circumstances if the guard did not recognise a genuine mistake. To end up in court if that was the route the TOC decided to take is really not on with the law worded the way it is as there seems to be no room for the court to decide other than you have comitted an offence. Yes court if you ran out of the station, no issue.

 

[Phirstman]

I agree, this certainly is misleading. If Northern are going down the hard-ball route (I have no problem with this approach) they need to get their documentation consistent across the service.

Far too wishy-washy.

 

[4SRKT]

Fact of the matter is Goatboy that these revenue protection checks usually take place beyond a place in which the passenger can purchase a ticket on the destination station. So you've been given the chance to buy one AGAIN at the destination but you've ignored that as well! No sympathy I'm afraid.

(I should point out I don't know the layout of Medowhell just stating what usually happens at these revenue checks)

Not at any Northern station I ever see this happening at. Always at the platform exits.

I don't actually know how you would stop someone leaving Keighley, Shipley, Bradford Forster Square or any of the other ungated stations I've seen Northern RPIs at once they had left the platforms. There are too many ways out.

 

[Ferret]

The way the train company sees this kind of situation is that it's somebody who only pays when challenged. No visit from the conductor and no barrier at exit equals free journey obtained - one of the most common forms of faredodging. Of course, only the OP knows if this modus operandum applies to them, but the aim of Northern's operation is to target precisely that form of fare evasion.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I don't think it is contradictory at all. The first part you highlighted sets out the obligations of a passenger.
. . . . .
The second part explains what one will be charged if one is sold a ticket. There is no compulsion that the guard must sell a ticket.

That is correct.
The statement is poorly worded, but not to the point of ambiguity.

I have to disagree with you here. From the charter quotes it clearly seems to say the guard will sell you a ticket.

No, it does not.
The words 'if' and 'only' are restrictive, and constrain what we can read into the subsequent remarks. I won't repeat bb21's analysis.

. . . . they need to get their documentation consistent across the service.

Far too wishy-washy.

They do. It's likely to lead to several contested Claims or Prosecutions.
But I don't have any trouble reading the Charter as consistent and compliant with the Railway Byelaws - they are NOT assuring passengers who board without a ticket where an opportunity to buy had been present that they can be assured of an opportunity to buy on-board to avoid falling foul of the Law.

 

[island]

It depends which bit is first in the charter. If you get to the bit that says you can buy on the train then you've found the info you want and would stop reading there

No it doesn't.

 

[Goatboy]

The fact we can have a now 2 page argument about it is enough proof for me that its badly worded, ambiguous and potentially misleading.

If it was so simple and easy to understand exactly what the rules were then we wouldnt be having a debate about it.

As it is - we are - a bunch of experienced rail travellers, rail staff and rail enthusiasts and even we can't get 100% agreement. What hope do the general public have?

 

[nibbles123]

The fact we can have a now 2 page argument about it is enough proof for me that its badly worded, ambiguous and potentially misleading.

If it was so simple and easy to understand exactly what the rules were then we wouldnt be having a debate about it.

As it is - we are - a bunch of experienced rail travellers, rail staff and rail enthusiasts and even we can't get 100% agreement. What hope do the general public have?

I couldn't agree more.

Thank you everyone for your constructive responses. I can absolutely see this from both sides. I think the answer is to make all major stations gated - why on earth hasn't this happened at Sheffield yet? I know there are issues with access for tram passengers at the far side of the station but surely that's not insurmountable (ticket machines could recognise tram tickets as well as rail tickets).

Another argument for another day?!

 

[jb]

The fact we can have a now 2 page argument about it is enough proof for me that its badly worded, ambiguous and potentially misleading.

People who want to be told that not paying their fare isn't really their fault (and those who have a general anti-operator slant) rant and wriggle and bluster. That's not a debate.

I think the answer is to make all major stations gated - why on earth hasn't this happened at Sheffield yet?

You not paying your fare is not the operator's fault. The answer is for you to pay your fare.

 

[Goatboy]

People who want to be told that not paying their fare isn't really their fault (and those who have a general anti-operator slant) rant and wriggle and bluster. That's not a debate.

Rubbish - the other side of the debate is not 'fare dodgers'. I think it's ambigous and badly worded and I have never once boarded a train without a valid ticket where the facilities to purchase beforehand existed so my opinion is not at all shaped by my own actions.

A suprisingly large number of people believe you can buy tickets on trains even if the office is open. Literature from TOC's often does nothing to sort this issue and neither does the fact I can't remember the last time I saw a train manager inform a passenger they were in the wrong. I am often on XC and FGW services from large stations with long opening hours and the train managers happily sell Anytime tickets onboard, further perpetuating the belief among many of the travelling public that this is correct and normal.

I myself had no idea you could be prosecuted before I frequented this forum despite travelling by rail for years. The reason I always bought before boarding was because I wanted railcard discounts or offpeak fares not because I thought you could be prosecuted.

I have no problem with the concept that if the office is open you must purchase a ticket or get prosecuted. Infact I agree with it. But it needs to be properly advertised without ambiguity and without confusion. Then it can be widely enforced and we'd probably see a massive reduction in ticketless travel as a result!

 

[jb]

Rubbish - the other side of the debate is not 'fare dodgers'.

Your terminology. Some of it is people who want to be patted on the head and told it's all OK, that they can pay when the nasty man comes around or if they have to get past that nasty barrier.

I'm sick to the bloody back teeth of it.

Literature from TOC's often does nothing to sort this issue and neither does the fact I can't remember the last time I saw a train manager inform a passenger they were in the wrong.

I hardly blame TMs when those who don't pay their fare will react with self-righteous indignation when challenged (and get backed-up by the likes of you).

I am often on XC and FGW services from large stations with long opening hours and the train managers happily sell Anytime tickets onboard, further perpetuating the belief among many of the travelling public that this is correct and normal.

I hardly blame TMs when those who don't pay their fare will react with self-righteous indignation when challenged (and get backed-up by the likes of you).

 

[Tibbs]

I hardly blame TMs when those who don't pay their fare will react with self-righteous indignation when challenged (and get backed-up by the likes of you).

But do you blame the TM for selling the single anytime fare (complete with commission) without mentioning to the passenger that they were supposed to have a ticket before they boarded, or they could be prosecuted?