One Day Travelcards and Split Ticketing

[NewForest]

Could someone please help me to clarify the rules for split ticketing when one of the tickets is a London One Day Travelcard? This is potentially beneficial as I travel into London (from Tube Zone 5) before starting my NR journey.

In order to use the following combination, must the train stop at the station when switching from one ticket to the other?

1. One Day Off Peak Travelcard Zones 1-6

2. CDR Boundary Zone 6 to a station outside London (eg. Oxford or Weymouth)

In both cases, the trains I use do NOT stop in Zone 6; the trains that stop (eg. at West Drayton or Surbiton) would make the journeys unacceptably slow. All journeys are off-peak or at weekends.

I've read NRCOC Rule 19, but it's confusing to an industry outsider and I've no experience of applying it in practice. I've previously used the ticket combination I've described above, but I stopped after receiving contradictory answers from different ticket offices.

Thank you.

(First post on here - please be gentle with my ignorance... )

 

[maniacmartin]

One day travel cards are not season tickets, so NRCoC clause 19c does not apply.

However, Boundary Zone tickets are a special exception which do not require the train to call when used in conjunction with a travelcard. A Boundary Zone extension is a weird hybrid cross between a ticket in its own right and an excess fare. Boundary Zone tickets are very poorly documented, so have fun trying to find anything in writing!

Some TOCs allow the combination of a One Day Travelcard and a ticket from the last station in the zones (which is usually the same price as the Boundary Zone ticket) without the train calling. In fact, some will even sell such a ticket even if you ask for a Boundary Zone ticket. But this practice is contrary to the NRCoC so I would only use such a split if it was advised by a member of staff working for the same TOC as whose services I am travelling on.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

As maniacmartins says, the boundary zones tickets are extensions of the Travelcard and do not require the train to stop at a station before, after or on the zone boundary (though I have had a major central London ticket office try to tell me otherwise).

They are the exception to the rule. It is documented in 'The Manual' (formerly the FRPP, formerly the National Fares Manual), which all ticket office staff should have access to (but very few seem to read).

 

[Be3G]

I see boundary zone tickets as being simpler than portrayed here: that they are single/return tickets, just with a zonal origin/destination rather than a specific station. As such, a travelcard of any duration plus a boundary zone ticket satisfies condition 19a (two zonal tickets), thereby not requiring 19b (train stopping at station where split takes place).

 

[NewForest]

Thank you all for the very prompt replies. Let me attempt to clarify what I'm understanding from your comments (feel free to correct):

- It is OK to combine a One Day Travelcard (ODTC) with an NR ticket from Boundary Zone 6 (BZ6) without the train stopping, without fear of challenge en route. That would be the affirmative answer I was seeking.

- However, opinions differ as to exactly HOW/WHY this is OK and how it satisfies the NRCoC 19 conditions.

- Or does everyone agree that a ODTC and BZ6 are both "zonal" tickets and so satisfy NRCoC 19(a)?

- From maniacmartin's comment, I'm unclear whether a BZ6 ticket or a ticket from a specific Zone 6 station is a safer bet.

- Is there a specific reference to, or quote from, the ticket office "Manual" to which I could refer if challenged?

Thanks again

 

[bb21]

I see boundary zone tickets as being simpler than portrayed here: that they are single/return tickets, just with a zonal origin/destination rather than a specific station. As such, a travelcard of any duration plus a boundary zone ticket satisfies condition 19a (two zonal tickets), thereby not requiring 19b (train stopping at station where split takes place).

NRCoC Appendix A(w) seems to suggest that a Boundary Zone extension ticket is not a zonal ticket.

(w) “Zonal Tickets” are those tickets which permit travel only within a defined area.

Not that it matters much.

 

[maniacmartin]

- From maniacmartin's comment, I'm unclear whether a BZ6 ticket or a ticket from a specific Zone 6 station is a safest

I would ask for a ticket from BZ6. If the clerk sells you a ticket from a named station, so be it. You don't need to carry any documents - these tickets aren't that obscure and staff are unlikely to dispute them if you're travelling on an obvious route.

You will need to buy the BZ ticket from a clerk as the self service machines don't vend them (except Southern machines) and will need to show your Travelcard when purchasing

 

[hairyhandedfool]

- It is OK to combine a One Day Travelcard (ODTC) with an NR ticket from Boundary Zone 6 (BZ6) without the train stopping, without fear of challenge en route. That would be the affirmative answer I was seeking.

Absolutely.

- However, opinions differ as to exactly HOW/WHY this is OK and how it satisfies the NRCoC 19 conditions.

Well, the problem from a 'joe public' point of view is that there really isn't much to go on, but 'The Manual' is clear, it does not need to comply with condition 19, it is an exception to the rule.

- Or does everyone agree that a ODTC and BZ6 are both "zonal" tickets and so satisfy NRCoC 19(a)?

No, the Boundary zone ticket does not fall into the NRCoC definition of a zonal ticket.

- From maniacmartin's comment, I'm unclear whether a BZ6 ticket or a ticket from a specific Zone 6 station is a safer bet.

A ticket from a specific station, officially, would have to comply with condition 19, and in the case of a one day Travelcard that would be 19b, the train must call. However, it seems that some ticket offices give out the station specific ticket instead of the correct boundary zone fare and some guards will accept it as valid even if it is not. The safer bet is the boundary zone fare though.

- Is there a specific reference to, or quote from, the ticket office "Manual" to which I could refer if challenged?

I couldn't give you a quote without access to 'The Manual' which I probably won't have until next week, but maybe someone else can oblige. You could ask staff to check 'The Manual', in particular the 'London' section, though be warned that some staff don't take kindly to being told their job.

NRCoC Appendix A(w) seems to suggest that a Boundary Zone extension ticket is not a zonal ticket.

Indeed.

 

[bb21]

- Is there a specific reference to, or quote from, the ticket office "Manual" to which I could refer if challenged?

I have extracted the relevant paragraph from The Manual.

 

[NewForest]

I have extracted the relevant paragraph from The Manual.

...and that paragraph from the Fares Manual (NFM) makes it crystal clear, thank you:

Combination of Tickets

Day Travelcards can be used in combination with Boundary Zone tickets for journeys which extend beyond the London Fare Zones boundary, whether or not the train calls at the point where the ticket holder changes from one ticket to the other. When used in combination with a point-to-point ticket, the train must call at the station where the ticket holder changes from one ticket to the other.

Thank you to everyone who replied so promptly and helpfully to my question. There's certainly a lot of very knowledgeable people here!

~~~~~~~~~~

To digress slightly (now that my main question has been answered), I stopped doing this a few years ago after a Waterloo ticket office clerk refused to sell me a BZ6 ticket to use with a ODTC: she said the Travelcard must be a season ticket. She would only sell me a station-to-station ticket from Surbiton (to Weymouth) and said the train must stop there. But that was a few years ago and I wonder whether the rules (or the Fares Manual) have changed or been clarified recently, or was the advice as wrong then as it would be now about the ODTC+BZ6? It seems I could have continued using the ODTC+BZ6 combo all along! But it isn't always the the best choice since off-peak Oyster fares were introduced; I've also discovered that through tickets from outer London NR stations (eg Enfield Chase) can work out cheaper. It's never simple, in other words! :roll:

 

[tractakid]

This makes me wonder whether I was lucky that the one time I bought a BZ6 ticket (to Watford Junction, at Barking) it was issued with no problem whatsoever. I even forgot to ask for it railcard discounted, but upon inspection of my Y-P discounted outboundary travelcard, the discount was applied. And, all done in time to catch my GOBLIN train.

A happy story!

 

[Be3G]

I sit corrected re. boundary zone tickets not technically being classed as a zonal ticket for NRCOC 19 purposes. Thank you to everyone for enlightening me!

Also, a useful thing about boundary zone tickets to bear in mind, NewForest, is that it means they can be used on more than one route. I note you mention Enfield Chase, for example – so if you want to ‘extend’ your travelcard to Hertford Stations, a boundary zone ticket means you can use either the Hertford North (FCC) or East (GA) line rather than limiting yourself to just the one with a ticket from ENC.

 

[bb21]

To digress slightly (now that my main question has been answered), I stopped doing this a few years ago after a Waterloo ticket office clerk refused to sell me a BZ6 ticket to use with a ODTC: she said the Travelcard must be a season ticket. She would only sell me a station-to-station ticket from Surbiton (to Weymouth) and said the train must stop there. But that was a few years ago and I wonder whether the rules (or the Fares Manual) have changed or been clarified recently, or was the advice as wrong then as it would be now about the ODTC+BZ6? It seems I could have continued using the ODTC+BZ6 combo all along! But it isn't always the the best choice since off-peak Oyster fares were introduced; I've also discovered that through tickets from outer London NR stations (eg Enfield Chase) can work out cheaper. It's never simple, in other words! :roll:

She was wrong.

Also, a useful thing about boundary zone tickets to bear in mind, NewForest, is that it means they can be used on more than one route. I note you mention Enfield Chase, for example – so if you want to ‘extend’ your travelcard to Hertford Stations, a boundary zone ticket means you can use either the Hertford North (FCC) or East (GA) line rather than limiting yourself to just the one with a ticket from ENC.

Indeed. In fact Boundary Zone ticket extensions can cause lots of routeing anomalies however I won't go into details here.

 

[34D]

I sit corrected re. boundary zone tickets not technically being classed as a zonal ticket for NRCOC 19 purposes. Thank you to everyone for enlightening me!

Regardless of the technical definition, I like your way of thinking as it is easy to follow. Its got zone in its title, it is a non-specific geographical location - works for me.

 

[maniacmartin]

Regardless of the technical definition, I like your way of thinking as it is easy to follow. Its got zone in its title, it is a non-specific geographical location - works for me.

Boundary Zone tickets allow travel to or from the edge of a zone, not within a zone. Therefore they are not zonal tickets.

 

[island]

It should be noted that in conjunction with a one-day or three-day Travelcard (although I think the latter has finally ceased to exist), a boundary zone ticket is valid without the requirement for the train to stop at the changeover point between the two tickets, but a named station ticket has such a requirement.

In conjunction with a seven-day or longer Travelcard, boundary zone and named station tickets are both valid irrespective of whether the train stops at that point, and this is sometimes relevant when the available prices or routes differ between the two.

 

[LexyBoy]

Topographically, a station represents a zero-dimensional point.

A "zonal" ticket covers a two-dimensional area.

A "boundary zone" represents the one-dimensional surface of the 2D zonal area appropriate to the Travelcard it is applied to. It is therefore not in itself zonal - it has zero area - but merges with a zonal ticket to give the travel opportunities that a (one-ended) zonal ticket would have.

Hope that clears things up.

ION, I love how typically RailUK this thread is Instead of "yes of course it's valid, that's the whole point" we get a detailed discussion of the intricacies of why it's valid.

 

[sheff1]

ION, I love how typically RailUK this thread is Instead of "yes of course it's valid, that's the whole point" we get a detailed discussion of the intricacies of why it's valid.

And that is why this forum is so good. If you understand why something is valid, and can refer to an official source, it makes it much easier to argue the case when confronted by staff who claim otherwise. A line of 'its valid because someone on a internet forum said so' is unlikely to get you very far

 

[Be3G]

Regardless of the technical definition, I like your way of thinking as it is easy to follow. Its got zone in its title, it is a non-specific geographical location - works for me.

Heh, thanks. The way I saw it was that ‘zonal’ just meant ‘described using zones’, not necessarily ‘containing travel within zones’. Alas that's not how the NRCoC see it as we now know, but thankfully it doesn't matter as the technical definition doesn't confer inferior rights (i.e. the tickets are still valid with one-day travelcards anyway).

 

[NewForest]

​

And that is why this forum is so good. If you understand why something is valid, and can refer to an official source, it makes it much easier to argue the case when confronted by staff who claim otherwise. A line of 'its valid because someone on a internet forum said so' is unlikely to get you very far

...which is precisely why I started this thread - to get confirmation I can rely on when travelling, backed by a definitive official source. This is exactly what I got (thank you) in the form of a quote from the Fares Manual (NFM) extract provided by bb21 in post #9 in this thread which is worth repeating for its unambiguous clarity:


Combination of Tickets

Day Travelcards can be used in combination with Boundary Zone tickets for journeys which extend beyond the London Fare Zones boundary, whether or not the train calls at the point where the ticket holder changes from one ticket to the other. When used in combination with a point-to-point ticket, the train must call at the station where the ticket holder changes from one ticket to the other.


There - I've got it now! I understand it - please don't anyone try to confuse me again!

As a member of the travelling public, I want to travel with full confidence that my tickets are indisputably valid and not be worrying throughout my journey in case I'm challenged. The range of responses here illustrates just how much uncertainty and confusion there is over this (relatively marginal?) aspect of ticketing and reinforced my need for a definitive answer based on an official source! Thanks everyone!

 

[DeeGee]

Sorry to hijack this thread, but are BZ tickets available to/from any station, or only those in the former NSE area?

 

[NewForest]

Sorry to hijack this thread

I'll forgive you as I've got the answer I was seeking!

are BZ tickets available to/from any station, or only those in the former NSE area?

According to RailUK Fares & Ticketing Guide - Section 4 - Excesses, Upgrades & Supplements - 4.4 Travelcard boundary extensions:

"For the most part, Boundary Zone tickets can be issued only where the origin and destination station is within the Network area. There are a few exceptions (such as Peterborough)."

You can try it out for yourself for different stations using brfares.com. Beyond that, I'll leave the experts to comment further, if required!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

.... Beyond that, I'll leave the experts to comment further, if required!

I think that pretty much covers it actually.