On-Train Ticket Checks

[twpsaesneg]

Morning,

I'm not entirely sure if this is the correct place for this thread, so mods feel free to move somewhere more appropriate.

I'm just interested to understand whether making ticket checks is actually part of Guards duties, or if it is an optional thing they do if they have time? I was on a cross-country train last week with long distances between stops; on my outward journey the guard came through and checked tickets, but on the return journey nothing. Given that the return journey was late evening, the barriers at both ends were open and I could have got away with travelling for free if I had been so inclined.

I'd be interested to know the answer, it's not to beat anyone about the head with or complain, it's just for my own personal interest.

 

[dakta]

Just going to hazard a guess that it is part of their duties, but when they aren't doing other duties.

Also wondered if it might be somewhat union related as whilst I don't travel by train often anymore a TOC I used to use that was religious every joruney is pretty much nill last few times I've used it.

 

[Haywain]

I'm just interested to understand whether making ticket checks is actually part of Guards duties, or if it is an optional thing they do if they have time?

It depends. Whilst it may be part of the duties of most guards it isn't for all guards, and there can be various reasons for not doing checks.

 

[1D54]

Is it not in their interests to check them as they are on commission for any sales they make?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Is it not in their interests to check them as they are on commission for any sales they make?

And some TOCs also offer a few pence for each e-ticket scanned.


On note of the main thread, I've noticed that since the Hindley stop has been re-introduced after the works there, I've seen less ticket checks. Maybe guards don't like to leave the back cab if the next stop is relative close?

 

[Haywain]

Is it not in their interests to check them as they are on commission for any sales they make?

It may well be, but there are reasons that it doesn't. Maybe the ticket issuing equipment isn't working, or maybe they have to report something that's occurred during the journey. Maybe they are not a commercial guard. As I said before, there are various reasons.

 

[Bluejays]

There could be various reasons. If you're on a train I work you're most likely going to see me checking your ticket.

But if the train is full you may well have got off by the time I get to your carriage

If the train is 2 trains coupled together, and there are no dispatchers at the station where I could move into front set. Then you won't see me in the front because I can't safely dispatch from there with no platform dispatchers present

I may have got to the carriage before yours and had to deal with an emergency/long customer service problem.

I may have spent half the journey on the phone to maintenance and/or the driver being instructed to check and reset various components. Or maybe I'm trying to report a fault(can sometimes take in excess of 30 minutes due to nobody answering and follow up questions etc)

Maybe you've boarded the train mid journey, in a coach I've already checked


Loads of reasons basically. Plus of course, there are a fair few lazy guards about. And it's also very possible for an otherwise proactive guard to be having a day, or more likely an individual train where they have decided to take it easy

 

[StoneRoad]

My experience as a guard is now several decades ago, but on the Festiniog, checking tickets was part of my duties, there was a routine to when and where, but basically after most station stops when passengers came aboard.
It always amused me the number of times and ways people could mislay / put away tickets in the short walk between the booking office, the platform and then their seat on the train ...
However, "revenue protection" was in second place, always after safely operating the train ...
The only times I did very little ticket checking was if there was a TTI on board. Although I frequently agreed to work from the van towards the TTI on busy trains.

 

[fandroid]

The OP's question and example do show a lack of proper joined-up thinking concerning revenue protection. I would normally say that journeys where all stations have staffed gates don't really need onboard checks. However, the proliferation of tickets restricted to one train or set of trains throws up the opposite problem. Then the gates don't help much and effectively, all tickets need to be checked on all trains. Northern, of course, have made that problem much worse with their instant "Advance" tickets for short journeys.

The Draconian partial revenue protection substituted instead, is an Anti-Marketing antidote to a measure which in theory is positive marketing

 

[pokemonsuper9]

However, the proliferation of tickets restricted to one train or set of trains throws up the opposite problem. Then the gates don't help much and effectively, all tickets need to be checked on all trains.

And use of unheld railcards or an adult with child tickets.

 

[fandroid]

And use of unheld railcards or an adult with child tickets.

Child tickets are flagged up at gates, so it's only poorly designed layouts or distracted staff that should let the dodgy ones pass. No reason why similar flagging up shouldn't occur for Railcards. At the moment the revenue protection system seems to comprise belt, braces, pieces of string, fierce guard dogs, all complemented by frequent holes and gaps and subject to random both increases and abandonment of intensity.

 

[scrapy]

A guards No1 priority is safety. Punctuality and customer service then come before revenue. Possible reasons for ticket checks not taking place. Many more probably crop up as well

1)Guard is unable to get down the train because it is full.
2)Guard is assisting a passenger with connections
3)Guard is contacting control to arrange alternative transport for a passenger who has missed a connection
4)Guard is in a separate ungangwayed part of the train
5)Guards ticket machine battery has run out
6)Guards ticket machine is broken
7)Guard could not collect a ticket machine because they were all in use
8)Guard could not collect a ticket machine because there were no staff available at depot to give them one.
9)Guard is not trained on revenue duties
10)A manager who is not trained in revenue duties is performing the role of the guard
11)Guard is not doing revenue duties (agreed with management )following an incident
12)Guard is not feeling well and they have agreed with management to continue in service back to their home depot
13)There is insufficient time between stations for revenue duties
14)Guard is dealing with a disruptive passenger
15)Guard is writing a report following dealing with a disruptive passenger
16)Guard is apeaking with control/manager about their future work on the diagram due to unplanned disruption
17)Guard is speaking with control/manager about their drivers future work on diagram due to unplanned disruption
18)Guard is assisting a disabled passenger
19)Guard is arranging assistance at en-route for a disabled passenger
20)Guard is fixing a fault on the train
21)Guard is arranging a fitter to deal with a fault on the train
22)guard is writing a report regarding a fault on train
23)guard started ticket checks in another carriage but is now dealing with a travel irregularity
24)guard is writing a report for an earlier travel irregularity
25)guard is following up on a report of suspicious behaviour
26)guard is dealing with a vulnerable passenger
27)guard is reading/replying to emails
28)guard has been asked not to do revenue as there is a revenue block further down the line
29)guard booked on late and was unable to collect revenue equipment
30)guard was asked to work the train at very short notice and was unable to collect revenue equipment
31)guard has been asked to stay on and cover the train and is being taxied straight home afterwards so is unable to hand back revenue equipment
32)guard has been asked to book on at a different depot than usual and has been unable to collect revenue equipment
33)guard has been called for a chat with their manager at start of shift and then had insufficient time to collect revenue equipment
34)guard has booked on or is finishing outside the times revenue equipment is available at their depot due to an amended diagram
35)guard has accidentally been locked out of revenue equipment by entering the wrong PIN.
36)guard is attempting to get connecting trains held due to late running
37)guard has found doing revenue on a particular train is far to much hassle than it's worth and despite numerous reports and requests for RPI/security assistance they haven't received any support off their management
38)guard has COVID and has been told to come in anyway if they have no symptoms. They may want as little contact as possible with passengers
39)guard is ensuring luggage is correctly stored
40)guard is dealing with a passenger complaint
41)guard is helping an unwell passenger
42)guard is dealing with lost property
43)guard is giving passenger information in disruption
44)guard is unable to secure the cab/office and has to remain in the vicinity of it
45)guard is being assessed
46)guard is an instructor and is training others
47)guard is helping a passenger who has got on the wrong train
48)guard is reporting delays
49)guard assisting the driver for example examining the line
50)guard is reporting a trespass or other event

It should be noted that one fairly uncomplicated report can take 20-30 minutes to write due to the detail required. One phonecall to control can easily take 10-15 minutes.

 

[Sheffcaster202]

I was going to echo @scrapy and point out as a guard it’s

1. Safety
2. Punctuality
3. Customer service (links in with 2)
4. Revenue duties

On 13 from scrapy’s post, not having enough time to get through between stops is a big issue for some of us, especially when you need to be at your door control panel in plenty of time, it can be impossible to get through 1 carriage, let alone anymore, check tickets and get back in time for arrival into a platform so, it has to be tactically played at times

As shown above a whole host of things can totally scupper your day and you have to prioritise your tasks, revenue being the last one in the hierarchy means at times it will have to be missed.

 

[Hadders]

No reason why similar flagging up shouldn't occur for Railcards.

Railcard discounted tickets at my local station (Stevenage) are routinely rejected by the ticket barriers. I am told this is so passengers can be asked for their railcard. While this sounds good it's actually counter-productive because the staff become so overwhelmed by passengers whose tickets do not open the barriers they end up getting 'waved through' without a proper inspection. It's also a very poor passenger experience.

A better way would be random blocks to check for railcards with sufficient numbers of staff to do a proper check without unduly delaying passsngers.

 

[Phil R]

Railcard discounted tickets at my local station (Stevenage) are routinely rejected by the ticket barriers. I am told this is so passengers can be asked for their railcard. While this sounds good it's actually counter-productive because the staff become so overwhelmed by passengers whose tickets do not open the barriers they end up getting 'waved through' without a proper inspection. It's also a very poor passenger experience.

A better way would be random blocks to check for railcards with sufficient numbers of staff to do a proper check without unduly delaying passsngers.

Ditto priv tickets. When the 'locks' are on you could be forgiven for thinking your magnetic strip has failed.There seems to be a disconnect between those whoo put the checks on and those who are actually supposed to be doing the resulting fuller check.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

I've always wondered the logic used for checking tickets on board, travelling back from Liverpool street to Norwich, I've had mine checked at Ipswich, diss and actually pulling into Norwich. Given that a lot of people have already got off by the time we get to Ipswich I've thought it rather pointless for a long time then I realised that I don't think diss and stowmarket probably don't have barriers but the rest of the stations do and therefore you can't get off at the wrong one.

 

[johnny_t]

Just a side observation, but I've noticed that you get your ticket checked less in 1st compared to Standard. My guess is that, with reservations, they know how many people should be in there, so as long as the numbers tally up and no-one obviously 'doesn't fit' then they don't ask so as not to sully the experience with such unpleasantness as asking to look at your ticket.

 

[Haywain]

Just a side observation, but I've noticed that you get your ticket checked less in 1st compared to Standard. My guess is that, with reservations, they know how many people should be in there, so as long as the numbers tally up and no-one obviously 'doesn't fit' then they don't ask so as not to sully the experience with such unpleasantness as asking to look at your ticket.

That's certainly not my experience.

 

[Krokodil]

That's certainly not my experience.

Indeed, chatting with colleagues from intercity TOCs, if there is one place they'll check, it'll be first class.

 

[davews]

Railcard discounted tickets at my local station (Stevenage) are routinely rejected by the ticket barriers. I am told this is so passengers can be asked for their railcard. While this sounds good it's actually counter-productive because the staff become so overwhelmed by passengers whose tickets do not open the barriers they end up getting 'waved through' without a proper inspection. It's also a very poor passenger experience.

A better way would be random blocks to check for railcards with sufficient numbers of staff to do a proper check without unduly delaying passsngers.

The same happened at the barriers for platforms 20-24 at Waterloo, or that is what we were told. Disinterested barrier staff just let you through without even asking to see the card. It looks like they have reverted this now, at least the last few times I just went through.

As for on train ticket checks, there was a phase a month ago when they regularly did checks. But now you don't even see the guard.

 

[TUC]

Plus of course, there are a fair few lazy guards about. And it's also very possible for an otherwise proactive guard to be having a day, or more likely an individual train where they have decided to take it easy

The other reasons you give are legitimate, but it's hard to see why any employer would accept the ones above.

 

[riceuten]

Railcard discounted tickets at my local station (Stevenage) are routinely rejected by the ticket barriers. I am told this is so passengers can be asked for their railcard. While this sounds good it's actually counter-productive because the staff become so overwhelmed by passengers whose tickets do not open the barriers they end up getting 'waved through' without a proper inspection. It's also a very poor passenger experience.

A better way would be random blocks to check for railcards with sufficient numbers of staff to do a proper check without unduly delaying passengers.

Amen - fellow Stevenage resident here - this drives me to distraction, particularly when the gathered revenue control staff concentrate on one miscreant, and we have a queue of people behind them with valid tickets waiting for them to conclude. It also blocks tickets on the way out, meaning a delay in catching the train.

 

[Bluejays]

The other reasons you give are legitimate, but it's hard to see why any employer would accept the ones above.

I don't think the railway is unique in having a percentage of staff who are not up to the required standard, it's my experience that there tend to be an element of the bad and lazy in all jobs and professions. Although the railway probably has more than it's fair share. A lot of companies probably should be harsher on underperforming/non performing staff, but that requires a level of management and work that a lot of companies (railway and non railway) don't seem willing to put in.


As for an otherwise good guard to be having an off day or an off train, that's just human nature. Show me somebody who works at 100% every minute of their work day. People in offices might have that half hour a week where they need to get away from the screen and talk to a colleague because their head has gone. That half hour in a week for a guard may coincide with one whole train. If they're performing at or above standard for the rest of the week I don't really see that as an issue.

I think it's a job where sometimes you need to take the self preservation line. If someone's threatened to 'knock me out' because they don't want to buy a ticket on my last journey, then there's probably a fair chance I'm going to be taking revenue easy on my next journey. Because from my personal experience 1 aggressive moron gets forgotten about by the end of my shift, multiple incidents in a short time tend to lead to stress and feeling a bit crappy for a day or 2 after.

 

[riceuten]

I think it's a tabloid stereotype - much amplified by social media and particular political groups that rail staff are "lazy", "overpaid", "overunionised" and "insufficiently grateful for employment in these harsh economic times". Oh, and lest we forget "it's just pushing a button, isn't it?"

 

[Bluejays]

I think it's a tabloid stereotype - much amplified by social media and particular political groups that rail staff are "lazy", "overpaid", "overunionised" and "insufficiently grateful for employment in these harsh economic times". Oh, and lest we forget "it's just pushing a button, isn't it?"

I agree mostly. Although I would say that there are a good few individuals who seem to enjoy playing up to the lazy stereotype.

 

[riceuten]

A few, much appreciated by Telegraph journalists and Conservative politicians to justify draconian changes to railway staff terms and conditions.

 

[cuccir]

in relation to 'laziness', I think the point is that because it is a lower priority duty, it is the sort that a 'diligent' guard will almost always find a way to do, a 'normal' guard will usually do when possible, and a 'lazy' guard will let those higher priority duties fill their time. I'm sure most of us have elements of our work which fit into that category, by which I mean it's not actually bad practice or dismissible if you don't do it, but you're expected to do it if you can. By nature, some people will find ways to do those sorts of tasks and others won't.

 

[Bluejays]

in relation to 'laziness', I think the point is that because it is a lower priority duty, it is the sort that a 'diligent' guard will almost always find a way to do, a 'normal' guard will usually do when possible, and a 'lazy' guard will let those higher priority duties fill their time. I'm sure most of us have elements of our work which fit into that category, by which I mean it's not actually bad practice or dismissible if you don't do it, but you're expected to do it if you can. By nature, some people will find ways to do those sorts of tasks and others won't.

Very true. I think it's also combined with a belief/expectation by some people viewing from outside that checking tickets is the only thing the guard is there to do. So you end up in the position where someone may have spent half hour on the phone to maintenance trying to fix something to keep the train in service yet is being judged as useless because 'they only have 1 job and they haven't even checked my ticket'

 

[Haywain]

Similarly, some guards who earn commission will make sure they do tickets on trains they perceive as being 'good earners' and perhaps not bother so much on those that are not likely to yield much.

 

[trainJam]

Does anyone know if guards on West Midlands Railway class 323s are still trained or allowed to check tickets?

In London Midland era it was 6tph so mostly 3 car services. Now and then you used to see the guard use the door control panel in the pantograph carriage and come through to check tickets. Usually you would be checked between Blake Street and Lichfield as there was more time between these stops compared to the central part of the route.

Technical question - must guards only use the middle cabs to dispatch on a 6 car 323?
My assumption is that the introduction of 4tph 6 car trains under WMR is the reason why I don't see guards going through anymore.