On train catering

[Failed Unit]

There has been a lot of debate about catering on the trains recently, mainly this has come from news that most of the recent franchise holders are wanting to make cutbacks. Just interested what level of catering service should have in an ideal world bearing in mind that kitchens take up a lot of room. For example is a trolley all that is needed on a journey of under 2 hours? It is all you get on Scotrail if you are going all the way to Inverness which is about 3 hours, but people want restaurants on the 1:40 minutes London - Norwich service.

To me, journeys under 2 hours a trolley will suffice, but a buffet is better as on crowded trains the trolley can't travel and passengers always know where a buffet is going to be. The other problem with a trolley is if you get on in coach c, the trolley is in coach f you don't know where it is and if/when you are going to see it. The 170's buffets don't really take up much space but they haven't been used by Scotrail much and CT never used them. Not sure why?

On journeys above 2 hours I think a buffet is the absolute minimum that is needed (shame xc don't think so), but again I doubt it would pay its way on say Liverpool - Norwich. Although I suspect the vast majority of passengers on this route are not on board for much more than 3 hours.

For 3 hours and above the hot food is a must, not sure if it airline meals are the way to go however as they take up less space even if they don't taste as nice. However it does cost a lot as take up a lot of space.

Any views?

 

[The_Rail_WAy]

For long distance journeys, such as the Caledonian sleeper or a London-Glasgow service then yes a buffet service is entirely necessary. For shorter journeys then yes, a trolley service will more than surfice, however a wider selection products such as Ginsters pasties and sandwiches would be better than your 'crisps, chocolate and a jaffa cake.'

An interseting note as that since TPE took over long distane routes to Scotland on the WCML a trolley service has replaced what would previously have been a buffet and to be honest it has worked well.

 

[maddeningcrowds]

Regarding "airline meals" i.e. preheated. I think these are viable for airlines and for example Eurostar where there are a fixed or at least highly predictable number of customers eating at fixed times.

But for national trains where customer numbers vary and customers want meals at different times, I can't see it working. You would end up heating up loads of food and then having to throw it away.

Also because everything is pre-prepared and preheated you can't choose from a menu, usually the only choice is meaty or vegetarian, like on airlines or Eurostar.

 

[M7]

Great pity NXEC has withdrawn the vast majority of dining car services. The dining car on the 20.00 KX to Newcastle was always full when I travelled. You would have thought they could have kept the dining car on the 12.00 KX to Inverness, just over 8 hrs. I cannot see Cross Country starting a restaurant car on 0820 Aberdeen to Penzance 13.5 hrs

 

[The_Rail_WAy]

Regarding "airline meals" i.e. preheated. I think these are viable for airlines and for example Eurostar where there are a fixed or at least highly predictable number of customers eating at fixed times.

But for national trains where customer numbers vary and customers want meals at different times, I can't see it working. You would end up heating up loads of food and then having to throw it away.

Also because everything is pre-prepared and preheated you can't choose from a menu, usually the only choice is meaty or vegetarian, like on airlines or Eurostar.

Spot on there mate, as I said earlier perhaps a wide selection of chilled snacks would be better such as:

Ginsters: pies, pasties, sausage rolls, sandwiches, wraps etc.
'Add hot water products' such as Pot noodle, Cup a soup etc.
Selection of fruits.
Pasta, rice and noodle salads.

 

[me123]

At seat meals in First Class are a good idea. I don't see why they wouldn't be possible in standard class, for a cost of course! I think it would be profitable on morning services to offer breakfast rolls and cereal to passengers. Fresh food prepared off the train and heated could also be made available to passengers. A limited supply available on the day, but with a reservation/Advance ticket and prepayment it could prove popular.

 

[jopsuk]

I wonder what Norwich-London commuters would make of a Kings Lynn- London commute? It's about the same time- no catering at all!

 

[me123]

If they get the ICE trains (5 car varients; I've heard this idea floating around), they'll probably get some form of catering on board.

I'm surprised, however, that a trolley service is not deemed viable on this service. Or on Cambridge fasts either.

 

[Golden Gripper]

The rail way
Ginsters: pies, pasties, sausage rolls, sandwiches, wraps etc.
'Add hot water products' such as Pot noodle, Cup a soup etc.

To me that sounds awful, a load of artificial flavour and presevatives pretending to be food. Only a spotty faced anorak would think it good (and you can see where the spots are coming from). And to think that Failed Unit said that airline meals don't taste as nice, its preferable to most of that stuff.

I can think of three preferable option: eat before I travel, eat after I travel or take my own.

 

[northernbored]

Hull Trains provide hearty lovely meals to first class passengers no matter how long the journey totally free with a large variety of free drinks aswell. Space permitting (i.e not completly reserved and meals avaliable) why not allow standard class passengers into first for say a £15 supplement and give them a meal and kick 'em out again!

 

[The_Rail_WAy]

The rail way
Ginsters: pies, pasties, sausage rolls, sandwiches, wraps etc.
'Add hot water products' such as Pot noodle, Cup a soup etc.

To me that sounds awful, a load of artificial flavour and presevatives pretending to be food. Only a spotty faced anorak would think it good (and you can see where the spots are coming from). And to think that Failed Unit said that airline meals don't taste as nice, its preferable to most of that stuff.

I can think of three preferable option: eat before I travel, eat after I travel or take my own.

They were just suggestions, people have different tastes. I don't think a sandwiches, wraps or fruit are unhealthy.

 

[jopsuk]

If they get the ICE trains (5 car varients; I've heard this idea floating around), they'll probably get some form of catering on board.

I'm surprised, however, that a trolley service is not deemed viable on this service. Or on Cambridge fasts either.

Kings Lynn FCC services are half of the Cambridge fasts- or rather, they are half of half the services, if that makes sense. Probably not. They're DOO, at least south of Cambridge.

 

[me123]

Yeah, I know that. Half hourly non stop London-Cambridge, with every other train extending to Kings Lynn.

 

[Failed Unit]

Hull Trains provide hearty lovely meals to first class passengers no matter how long the journey totally free with a large variety of free drinks aswell. Space permitting (i.e not completly reserved and meals avaliable) why not allow standard class passengers into first for say a £15 supplement and give them a meal and kick 'em out again!

I think this is airline style as well. I know virgin cook breakfast on board but I don't know if the evening meal isn't pre-cooked as well.

Been pick neither HT or Virgin offer free food, it is included in the ticket price but it is not free! Virgins AP fares per mile are more expensive then NXEC for that reason. HT are cheaper but they are open access.

 

[matchmaker]

I generally take my own - a quick trip to M&S to stock up on sarnies & booze

Back to Scotrail - what services are the buffet equipped 170/3's used on?

 

[The_Rail_WAy]

In fairness I usually pre-buy any drinks, meals and snacks prior to boarding the train as you have a better choice and more mportantly - its cheaper!

 

[Failed Unit]

In fairness I usually pre-buy any drinks, meals and snacks prior to boarding the train as you have a better choice and more mportantly - its cheaper!

The joy of not having to pay VAT! On the station it is 0% on the train it is 17.5% (OK 15% at the moment, but the prices haven't lowered so the TOC are taking the extra profit here)

I generally take my own - a quick trip to M&S to stock up on sarnies & booze

Back to Scotrail - what services are the buffet equipped 170/3's used on?

Glasgow / Edinburgh - Inverness.

One problem with including food in the ticket price is if you get an unexpected extra demand you have a problem. This has hid Virgin before when the airlines are cancelling domestic flights. They get a surge of 1st class passengers and not enough food for them all. As it is included in the ticket price passengers complain as they are not getting what they paid for. On the East Coast as it is limited anyway they are not as happy but as they haven't paid for it in their ticket they are not as unhappy.

Oh and you can buy tickets on the East Coast with free food they are call the dine and go tickets!

 

[MCR247]

I generally take my own - a quick trip to M&S to stock up on sarnies & booze

Back to Scotrail - what services are the buffet equipped 170/3's used on?

I dont think they use the buffets. They can end up on anything between a Edinburgh-Bathgate service or Edinburgh - Inverness!

 

[M7]

The M&S £2 meal deal at stations is a bargain. If people are being made redundant by the withdrawal of the dining cars, and I am sure that is the long term plan, that is the real tragedy.

 

[First ScotRail]

I dont think they use the buffets. They can end up on anything between a Edinburgh-Bathgate service or Edinburgh - Inverness!

They can now yes, however they previouly used them and are now considering re-introducing them with new product lines.

In my opinion SR need to give the exHT 170s a refurb to SR standards, increase the first class seating capacity. I also think they need to get powerpoints fitted throughout their own 170s.

 

[Pumbaa]

Out of interest, now I'm booked on them, what is the FC offering of TPE in terms of catering?

 

[The_Rail_WAy]

Out of interest, now I'm booked on them, what is the FC offering of TPE in terms of catering?

As far as I'm aware its the standard buffet trolley service: crips, chocolate and a jaffa cake etc.

 

[upnorth71]

In Japan they got rid of the dining/buffet cars years ago-they were perpetual money pits. Now it's a trolley service, or a box lunch (some quite delicious) purchased at the station before boarding. This is for all trains (except for a couple of sleeper trains) from regional diesel trains to the longest distance Shinkansen.

That said, cultures differ. Personally I say trolley service for anything up to 2.5 hours, buffet for longer services. Or just bring your own food.

 

[maddeningcrowds]

Out of interest, now I'm booked on them, what is the FC offering of TPE in terms of catering?

Complimentary tea/coffee and a biscuit. My wife asked for orange juice once and they were happy to give that complimentary too.

The range of snacks is surprisingly wide given the tiny trolley they are crammed on to, but you have to pay for anything more than a biscuit.

 

[voyagerdude220]

On TPE, you also usually get the option of fruit cake slices, crisps, and an apricot filled croissant which i personally find surprisingly addictive.

I'm not sure why the self-contained 'snack box' container has been removed, although i prefer the current "un contained" all day selection.

 

[Tom B]

I've taken to bringing my own if I'm organised. The simple reason - apart from the cost of it - is that you can't rely on the on-train catering at all, at least with NXEC. Sometimes it's good and well stocked, other times it's non-existent.

 

[northernbored]

I think this is airline style as well. I know virgin cook breakfast on board but I don't know if the evening meal isn't pre-cooked as well.

Been pick neither HT or Virgin offer free food, it is included in the ticket price but it is not free! Virgins AP fares per mile are more expensive then NXEC for that reason. HT are cheaper but they are open access.

Sort of...

They don't use anything like RailGourment, apparently the have there own teams that prepeare the meal for cooking or assembly on board.
On the old 222's they were hot meals and assembled on board, on the pre refurb 180 they were chilled with only the odd item warm (only a microwave in the FC coach, no kitchen) the new 180's will have a full kitchen though.