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On time train that is late

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HockeyChris

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This morning the 0739 from Leeds to Bradford Forster Square was late. When I looked on the National Rail app it stated that the train arrived on time into platform 4B at 0724 from its previous journey. I was standing on the platform from 0720 and the train didn't arrive into Leeds until 0744. How does this happen that is shows arriving at its destination on time but is in fact 20 minutes late?
 
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0724 Arrival from Skipton at p5 and was 1 min late
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y91119/2016/01/05
0733 Departure to Ilkley at p5 and was 1 min early
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y93193/2016/01/05
0739 Arrival from Ilkley at p4 and was 4 min late
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y91929/2016/01/05
0739 Departure to Bradford F Square at p4 and was 8 min late
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y91929/2016/01/05

It would appear that the National Rail app got confused somewhere along the line. If this is a regular journey, it would be interesting to know if this happens again (update the thread).
 
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Adam0984

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Looks like they're doing a bit of set swapping and stepping up as they're probably a 333 short after 333004 failed yesterday.
The national rail app probably runs off the booked platform when everything runs fine
 
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hounddog

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This morning the 0739 from Leeds to Bradford Forster Square was late. When I looked on the National Rail app it stated that the train arrived on time into platform 4B at 0724 from its previous journey. I was standing on the platform from 0720 and the train didn't arrive into Leeds until 0744. How does this happen that is shows arriving at its destination on time but is in fact 20 minutes late?

It's called fiddling the stats or, in legal terms, fraud.
 

Tetchytyke

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The National Rail app makes assumptions based on what is diagrammed to happen. In this case, the 0724 arrival from Skipton usually goes on to form the 0739 to Forster Square, as you can see on RTT for tomorrow: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/LDS/2016/01/06/0739?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

Today they've obviously stepped up trains, as it appears the 0708 ecs arrival from Forster Square (which usually forms the 0733 Ilkley) did not run, probably due to yesterday's failure. Today the 0724 arrival went out as the 0733 to Ilkley, so the Forster Square was formed of the stock from the 0739 arrival from Ilkley, as you can see on RTT: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/LDS/2016/01/05/0704. This arrived 5 late and departed 8 late.

The train from Skipton arrived on time, but formed a different outgoing service to yours.

No fraud or "stats fiddling" involved anywhere :roll:
 
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Tetchytyke

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RealTimeTrains uses the same data and makes the same assumptions that the National Rail app makes.

In normal operation the platforms on RTT will usually be right, but until the train is marked "at platform" then the train may use a different platform. This is more common at some stations than others (short notice platform changes happen a lot at Euston).
 
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Tom

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RealTimeTrains uses the same data and makes the same assumptions that the National Rail app makes.
Yes to same basic source data. No to assumptions, it handles next train working completely differently - and while it may show next train associations in some locations (from the timetable) it might ignore them, completely.
 

bramling

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Probably the same amount as the last time he made that claim, and the time before etc etc! :roll:

Yeah but we all know it goes on. Maybe not in this particular instance, however -'ve certainly encountered the odd iffy time, or alternatively the system being played to the limits of the rules so someone gets a green scorecard.

Wherever there's humans in the process there's at least the potential for pressure to be applied to get those all-important green squares on the scorecard.

(And, yes, I could provide very specific examples, but it's not appropriate to do so on this forum!)
 

bb21

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Yeah but we all know it goes on. Maybe not in this particular instance, however -'ve certainly encountered the odd iffy time, or alternatively the system being played to the limits of the rules so someone gets a green scorecard.

Wherever there's humans in the process there's at least the potential for pressure to be applied to get those all-important green squares on the scorecard.

(And, yes, I could provide very specific examples, but it's not appropriate to do so on this forum!)

The system is not bright enough to be able to distinguish trains well in some circumstances, but there are plenty of stakeholders involved to ensure that any incorrect recording is weeded out, due to the sums of money involved.

There may be one or two every now and then that slips through the net, but I doubt any such big discrepancy as the one the OP claimed would go unnoticed, as it will have an impact on performance figures which all TOCs will be keen to get right. I am interested to hear how these figures can be fiddled with if brought to the attention of someone as verification is not that difficult, and if a train is a minute late, it is a minute late. A train that is 20 minutes late is not going to be recorded as RT once someone has checked it.

Claiming that some staff deliberately fiddle with the statistics is quite an insult to everyone who works in performance management. The DfT takes such practice very seriously so no TOC will be foolish enough to do that.
 

herschell

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It's like the 0656 from Hyndland to Central, RTT regulary claims it arrives into platform 14 on time which is a high level platform when it really arrives I think it's platform 16 which is one of the low level platforms, it's just getting confused like some of these systems can do.
 

ComUtoR

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Does TRUST use the same system ?

I have noticed and mentioned internally that sometimes trains are shown as arrived but are still sitting outside the station. Another member of staff told me this is due to where the sensors etc are placed. If the train goes through the last sensor which treats it as arrived then the Sig pulls the road for another platform what happens ?

I assume like someone posted this was due to stock changes. Does the system retrospectively adjust ?

From filling out many delay reports there is a system where there is a human checking and making changes somewhere. Is that done on a different system ?

Cheers in advance.
 

Dr Hoo

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TRUST uses what are called "berthing offsets" to add on the normal running time from the last "reporting point" (typically at the last signal gantry outside a terminal station) to the platforms once the signal has cleared.

These offsets and lots of other technical details are set out in a "margin book".
 

The Planner

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Berth offsets are normally worked out manually, a margin book is something entirely different and would be surprised if they still exist!
 

louis97

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It's like the 0656 from Hyndland to Central, RTT regulary claims it arrives into platform 14 on time which is a high level platform when it really arrives I think it's platform 16 which is one of the low level platforms, it's just getting confused like some of these systems can do.

A simple change of a number in the database will fix that. Left over from before the platforms were renumbered.

Does TRUST use the same system ?

I have noticed and mentioned internally that sometimes trains are shown as arrived but are still sitting outside the station. Another member of staff told me this is due to where the sensors etc are placed. If the train goes through the last sensor which treats it as arrived then the Sig pulls the road for another platform what happens ?.

The main method of train reporting is by the train describer feed, train Describers are placed at all main aspect signals and the train headcode placed within these moves with the train across the network. The train describer feeds allows Trust, RTT, etc to work out the signal the train has just passed, when it passed that signal and which one it will come across next. This information is used to work out the time taken from passing a signal to getting to a location of interest, for example stopping in the platform at a station. There are however areas which do not have any train describers and information is provided manually by signallers or platform staff. Generally a train should not report an arrival at a location until it has passed the signal protecting that location, mis-configuration can of course mean this is not always the case.
 

ComUtoR

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I understand all that. Cheers guys/gals.

If I'm sitting outside the station and booked into platform 8 but for whatever reason the Sig pulls of for platform 4 does the system know, adjust, or simply assume it will arrive on the booked platform ?
 

Fahad

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This morning the 0739 from Leeds to Bradford Forster Square was late. When I looked on the National Rail app it stated that the train arrived on time into platform 4B at 0724 from its previous journey. I was standing on the platform from 0720 and the train didn't arrive into Leeds until 0744. How does this happen that is shows arriving at its destination on time but is in fact 20 minutes late?

Well if it really happened, then it is a fraud!
 

Tetchytyke

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Well if it really happened, then it is a fraud!

As I went through yesterday, it didn't happen.

The 0724 arrival was bang on time, it just went into a different platform because it was operating a different service out of Leeds.
 
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