"On Time"/"Expected at" Signs/Announcements

[mallard]

There are a few things about these systems that I find a little silly.

First, they insist on displaying insignificant delays that are almost always made up by the time the train arrives. If it last reported 1 minute late 20 miles away, it probably won't be late by the time it arrives.

Secondly, they continue to display "Expected at" times that are in the past! It's very silly that I can be waiting for a train at 10:27 that hasn't arrived and the board says "Expected at 10:25". Make it say "Expected Imminently" or something. "Expected at" times in the past look unprofessional and make passengers think they are being deceived.

Thirdly, when a train is stuck somewhere and not moving, tell us about it! Don't just update the "Expected at" time to get one minute later every minute! Tell us that the train is held up and that nobody knows exactly when it will arrive. Make the displays say "Delayed due to signal failure" or something. This is particularly annoying in that people who are not used to it will forgo catching alternative services (e.g. the stopper when waiting for a delayed express) that will get them to their destination faster because the display gives a misleading impression that their train will be there in a few minutes.

I know roughly how the system works and the technical reasons for these things and it's a good deal better than it used to be, but these things really need improving. People won't trust the screens if they see them sometimes displaying blatantly false information and in some cases the "expected at" information is worse than useless.

Is there any chance that these things can be improved? Who's responsible for the system anyway? Any other thoughts on the subject?

 

[thefab444]

Thirdly, when a train is stuck somewhere and not moving, tell us about it! Don't just update the "Expected at" time to get one minute later every minute! Tell us that the train is held up and that nobody knows exactly when it will arrive. Make the displays say "Delayed due to signal failure" or something. This is particularly annoying in that people who are not used to it will forgo catching alternative services (e.g. the stopper when waiting for a delayed express) that will get them to their destination faster because the display gives a misleading impression that their train will be there in a few minutes.

Most systems down here display the train as "Delayed" or "Being Delayed" if it is stuck somewhere for more than a couple of minutes.

 

[northwichcat]

Some of them show 'Arrived' before the train has actually arrived.

One Saturday evening Manchester-Chester via Altrincham service a few weeks back was showing on the display screens as 5 minutes late, 8 minutes late, then 12 minutes late.

It arrived on time. However, it was 2x142s with the front one almost full and the rear one locked out of use with around 100 passengers waiting to board. It did depart a few minutes late by the time everyone tried to board the front train, the guard went to unlock the rear unit and then the guard told the passengers squeezed on the front unit like sardines that he'd now opened the rear unit.

 

[starlightEXPRESS]

Something I've noticed on SWT screens in the past six months or so: about 20-30 seconds after the train arrives the screen goes blank and then a message saying:

"Please Stand Clear
This train is ready to leave"

appears and remains visible until after the train has left. It something physically detecting that the train has been in the platform for a specified length of time, or is it just guessing on the basis of when the last signal was passed?

 

[thefab444]

I think that is triggered 45 seconds before the train is due to depart, providing the train has actually arrived.

 

[Mike395]

Most systems down here display the train as "Delayed" or "Being Delayed" if it is stuck somewhere for more than a couple of minutes.

I quite like the way LU display trains which are stopped briefly, such as waiting at a red signal just outside the station - they use the word 'Held' which, in my view, gives passengers reassurances that the train will move again shortly. I'd like to see this being implemented on NR also for services that are stationary for a short period, rather than the currently all-encompassing 'Delayed'.

 

[PR1Berske]

The screens are better than they used to be, but there are still improvements, certainly.

 

[Stigy]

I believe mosts systems use GPS technology (or similar?) to track where the train is, therefore even the slightlest delays are shown. What annoys me as far as these systems go, is when the display is edited by staff for whatever reason (to give advice on delays or engineering work etc.) and they make a spelling/grammatical error. One bug bear is a message that reads "If you are going to X and Y you will need to get of from the front eight coaches of the train because these stations have short platforms". Now, not only is it very long and drawn out, when it could quite easily have said something like "Passengers for X or Y must travel in the front eight coaches due to short platforms at these stations", but suarely a passenger would not be travelling to station X and station Y, but station X OR station Y. Cant be travelling to both! Another one that is edited by humans, but because of how many times it gets used, it's saved to be used every time it's needed.

 

[thefab444]

One bug bear is a message that reads "If you are going to X and Y you will need to get of from the front eight coaches of the train because these stations have short platforms". Now, not only is it very long and drawn out, when it could quite easily have said something like "Passengers for X or Y must travel in the front eight coaches due to short platforms at these stations"

Assuming you are talking about the SWT system, originally the latter wording was used but it was changed to the former wording after comments from some nonsense Plain English campaign.

It is not powered by GPS, but by train describers/track circuits and various computer systems (TRUST etc.) depending on the particular CIS solution.

 

[Stigy]

Assuming you are talking about the SWT system, originally the latter wording was used but it was changed to the former wording after comments from some nonsense Plain English campaign.

It is not powered by GPS, but by train describers/track circuits and various computer systems (TRUST etc.) depending on the particular CIS solution.

Yeah I thought it was something like that, but GPS was all I could think of, hence why I said "or similar"...I know better than that, too...I feel stupid now :roll:

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

After many years of watching screens at places like Crewe, I tend to regard "On Time" as meaning "we haven't bothered to check".
A train will be "On Time" until about 10 mins before arrival, and then suddenly show as 15 minutes late, which must have been known somewhere long beforehand.
And time and again a train will not appear until well after the "Expected" time.

While we are at it, why do these screens (the summary ones) not show the operator?
In a world of TOC-specific tickets people need to know when the next TOC-specific train is expected.
Again at Crewe, trains to Manchester can be NT, VT, AW or XC but you never get to know the operator until the detailed platform display comes up.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....First, they insist on displaying insignificant delays that are almost always made up by the time the train arrives. If it last reported 1 minute late 20 miles away, it probably won't be late by the time it arrives....

From experience I can say that some people are quite picky about delays, even the really small ones.

....Secondly, they continue to display "Expected at" times that are in the past! It's very silly that I can be waiting for a train at 10:27 that hasn't arrived and the board says "Expected at 10:25". Make it say "Expected Imminently" or something. "Expected at" times in the past look unprofessional and make passengers think they are being deceived....

I'm sure there are ways that money can be thrown at systems like that, but I offer you a first hand experience of a delay for which "Expected imminently would be most unsuitable.

A train had past the detection point for the Live Departure Board on the staff screen and so it stated the time the train had arrived in bold to signify it was either in the station or very close to it. The train actually arrived in the station 14 minutes later, no reason was ever given to me, I could only presume a pass comm had been pulled as the same unit continued running throughout the day.

....Thirdly, when a train is stuck somewhere and not moving, tell us about it! Don't just update the "Expected at" time to get one minute later every minute! Tell us that the train is held up and that nobody knows exactly when it will arrive. Make the displays say "Delayed due to signal failure" or something. This is particularly annoying in that people who are not used to it will forgo catching alternative services (e.g. the stopper when waiting for a delayed express) that will get them to their destination faster because the display gives a misleading impression that their train will be there in a few minutes....

The system is pretty much automatic as I understand it, if a train doesn't pass a timing point when it is expected the system updates the delay every minute (or three) until the train does pass it. The delay is then added to all the following timing points. If a train is stationary that time will just keep changing until manually altered or the train gets moving. Given the signallers are usually quite busy, precise information can be hard to come by at first. AFAIK, it has to go from the signaller to Network Rail control, to the TOC control centre, then to other TOC control centres and TOC staff.

 

[The 158 Man]

Some of them show 'Arrived' before the train has actually arrived.

This is usually after the train has passed it's last signal before entering the platform/station.

 

[All Line Rover]

Some of them show 'Arrived' before the train has actually arrived.

I am far from being an expert on railway infrastructure, but with the little knowledge that I have, I think there are "points" (or something like that) just outside a railway station. When a train passes those points, it is classed as having "arrived" at that station.

That's why if you make a Delay Repay claim for a 30 minute delay (once the doors have opened), it may only have registered as a 28 minute delay on the TOC's records. Particularly annoying is the odd time when a train passes the "points" at a station (so is classed as having arrived), but has to wait for a platform before the doors can be opened!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

While we are at it, why do these screens (the summary ones) not show the operator?
In a world of TOC-specific tickets people need to know when the next TOC-specific train is expected.
Again at Crewe, trains to Manchester can be NT, VT, AW or XC but you never get to know the operator until the detailed platform display comes up.

I agree that having an extra column with "VT", "ATW", "LM", "XC", etc. would be very helpful. It would probably best to have a direct abbreviation of each TOC's name (except XC, because everyone knows that it stands for CrossCountry) instead of the way TOC's appear in Avantix - "VWC," "LMR", "CC," etc..

 

[Get-Pulled-Off]

After many years of watching screens at places like Crewe, I tend to regard "On Time" as meaning "we haven't bothered to check".
A train will be "On Time" until about 10 mins before arrival, and then suddenly show as 15 minutes late, which must have been known somewhere long beforehand.
And time and again a train will not appear until well after the "Expected" time.

Not withstanding the occasions where it is an error by staff not updating the system, there are many legitimate reasons why this may be the case, and most of them are difficult to avoid. Delays on approaching trains are easy for staff to spot, so it's unlikely that many instances are caused by lazyness.

There can be significant lengths of the train's journey where there are no reporting points. If a delay is encounted here, it is unlikely to be reported quickly to station staff because, as mentioned, the first person to be informed/aware of the situation is the signalman. This is then a period of heavy workload and the preference is to get on with rectifying the issue rather than distributing information. Yes, a call is sent to Control, but from my expirence they are not great at estimating the delay, and further calls are often needed from the signalman to update them.

Personallly, I try to update station staff directly. But this comes maybe 3rd or 4th in my list of priorities, and I'll use a best guess as to the likely delay. But a best guess is all it is, situations can get more or less serious depending on what the driver reports. What appears to be a simple track circuit showing occupied can be a broken rail for example, once an examination has been carried out.

So yes, the system is far from perfect and improvements should be looked at, but it's far from easy.

 

[WillPS]

One thing that annoys me about these sytems is that they announce *everything*. The other day I heard Sheffield's voice announcing a platform change for a Leeds stopper due to depart in 80 minutes time - who on earth does that benefit?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So yes, the system is far from perfect and improvements should be looked at, but it's far from easy.

I appreciate the difficulties of getting accurate updates if the systems used are largely manual.
But with every train bristling with GPS kit accurate to a few metres, you would think this would have become the basis for train location for PIS purposes, and leapfrog the signalling systems.

I expect someone somewhere will be beavering away on just such an app!

 

[button_boxer]

One thing that annoys me about these sytems is that they announce *everything*. The other day I heard Sheffield's voice announcing a platform change for a Leeds stopper due to depart in 80 minutes time - who on earth does that benefit?

Presumably it announces platform alterations as soon as they are programmed in, and then announces them again whenever it doesn't have anything higher-priority to say. Particularly annoying late at night, I was at Sheffield once not too long ago waiting for a train to Derby around 22:30 and the automatic announcer decided to announce a platform alteration for the 23omething to Manchester. And then announce it again a minute later. And again. And again. As a computer programmer I can understand why it does that, but by the fifteenth time I was almost ready to break in to the ticket office and find the override button myself...

 

[snail]

Thirdly, when a train is stuck somewhere and not moving, tell us about it! Don't just update the "Expected at" time to get one minute later every minute! Tell us that the train is held up and that nobody knows exactly when it will arrive.

Yes, this is where I don't understand the reluctance to share the more accurate positional information with the public. If I'm stuck at Wigan waiting for a train to Preston I don't just want to know what time it left Euston or the 'expected' time at Warrington, it would help to know where it is en route so I can assess alternatives (like going across to Bolton if need be and getting a train from there if it's a serious problem).

 

[Get-Pulled-Off]

I appreciate the difficulties of getting accurate updates if the systems used are largely manual.
But with every train bristling with GPS kit accurate to a few metres, you would think this would have become the basis for train location for PIS purposes, and leapfrog the signalling systems.

I expect someone somewhere will be beavering away on just such an app!

Possibly, but then it would still need manual overrides should there be a delay en-route, otherwise it would assume that it will take x minutes when it won't. There is then the problem of late trains being regulated for something else. There is no easy solution, but I agree it could be better than it is now.

Interestingly there is (or used to be) a CCF screen at Man Picc facing customers at the information desk. I guess it's principle purpose was to show train crew where their unit was. But I wonder if a system could be shown to the public more generally. There would have to be some way of showing which headcode was which train, but it would allow passengers who have a reasonable amount of knowledge where their train was. For those who can't understand it, staff can always give information in the same way they do now. Just a thought. Probably rubbish.

 

[exile]

My favourite is the system at Warrington Central which sometimes insist a train is boarding at platform 1 when there's nothing there!