On line ticket purchase

[tillgab]

I've lived abroad for many years now, visiting the UK.

I tried to buy ticket on C2c with Trainsplit - directed to ticket machine at a different station. Station staff suggested to use Trainline- I did, and an Aztec code was provided as a ticket.

What other online seller has this facility? It seems LNER and TrainPal do not.

Confused……

 

[Watershed]

Welcome to the forum.

What journey were you making, and what kind of ticket were you trying to buy? You mention TrainSplit and also TrainPal, is it possible you mixed these two (somewhat similar sounding) retailers up or did you try both?

In general, eTickets are available for most journeys involving travel purely within the c2c network. However, if you make a journey that involves crossing London using the Tube or DLR, then you wouldn't normally be offered an eTicket as TfL don't have barcode scanners at their barriers.

In the latter case, you would have to collect your ticket at a ticket machine by entering an 8-digit alphanumeric code. Some retailers and machines also require you to either physically enter the payment card used, or any card (the latter is being phased out as it's completely pointless for obvious reasons).

There are a small number of journeys where Trainline offer eTickets but other retailers don't. This is because they work to their own set of 'grandfathered' rules when determining whether they can issue an eTicket for a given journey. All other retailers have to follow the data contained in an industry feed (RCS), where the train companies enable individual journeys and ticket types for eTickets (or not, as the case may be).

 

[tillgab]

Thank you.

I’d travelled to West Ham and tapped out of oyster. The plan was to buy a new C2C ticket to Southend using TrainSplit. That directed me to Stratford for ticket issue.

A helpful staff member suggested Trainline; I d Downloaded the app and paid; a barcode e-ticket appears so all well.

Today I researched alternatives to Trainline and TrainPal came up. But as I see it they don’t have the barcode option.

Sounds as though I encountered a case of Trainline having the grandfather rights you mention, which appears to give them a commercial advantage over other retailers. Interesting.

 

[Watershed]

Thank you.

I’d travelled to West Ham and tapped out of oyster. The plan was to buy a new C2C ticket to Southend using TrainSplit. That directed me to Stratford for ticket issue.

A helpful staff member suggested Trainline; I d Downloaded the app and paid; a barcode e-ticket appears so all well.

Today I researched alternatives to Trainline and TrainPal came up. But as I see it they don’t have the barcode option.

Sounds as though I encountered a case of Trainline having the grandfather rights you mention, which appears to give them a commercial advantage over other retailers. Interesting.

Yes, it looks like c2c haven't enabled West Ham to Southend fares for eTicket fulfilment in RCS. However, Trainline have decided that they do want to issue it as an eTicket. Like you say, that gives them an unfair advantage over other retailers.

Unfortunately, since West Ham station is managed by London Underground, the ticket machines there don't support ticket collection. You'd have to buy a ticket from the machine in the normal way.

Personally speaking, I don't think Trainline's approach to enabling eTickets is necessarily wrong, especially since train companies often forget (or sometimes deliberately don't) enable tickets for eTicket fulfilment in RCS. It has to be done manually for every fare type between every combination of stations, so oversights are to be expected. The problem is that the industry body, RDG, holds all other retailers to a different set of rules.

 

[tillgab]

Many thanks- by good fortune I have followed this forum for four years and learnt a great deal! I’m not a rail professional- mine was aviation- but having a resource like this forum is a huge asset.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Yes, it looks like c2c haven't enabled West Ham to Southend fares for eTicket fulfilment in RCS. However, Trainline have decided that they do want to issue it as an eTicket. Like you say, that gives them an unfair advantage over other retailers.

Unfortunately, since West Ham station is managed by London Underground, the ticket machines there don't support ticket collection. You'd have to buy a ticket from the machine in the normal way.

Which is almost certainly why c2c haven't enabled e-ticket fulfilment for (some?) tickets to/from West Ham. The same applies to Chiltern and stations between Harrow-on-the-Hill and Amersham (inclusive) and also South Ruislip and West Ruislip. This approach causes problems of its own, of course, as not only can you not get a barcode ticket due to LU not having barcode scanners on their gates, you can't collect a TOD because their ticket machines don't support it.

West Ham - Southend tickets can be fulfilled to Smartcard, however, which can either be loaded at a gateline or using a suitable phone.

 

[Watershed]

Which is almost certainly why c2c haven't enabled e-ticket fulfilment for (some?) tickets to/from West Ham. The same applies to Chiltern and stations between Harrow-on-the-Hill and Amersham (inclusive) and also South Ruislip and West Ruislip. This approach causes problems of its own, of course, as not only can you not get a barcode ticket due to LU not having barcode scanners on their gates, you can't collect a TOD because their ticket machines don't support it.

West Ham - Southend tickets can be fulfilled to Smartcard, however, which can either be loaded at a gateline or using a suitable phone.

Ah, fair point. Of course you can still buy an eTicket from London Terminals (or one from West Ham via Trainline) so the TfL barrier staff are still going to see plenty of barcode tickets.

An obvious initial candidate (along with Stratford and other NR/LU interchange stations like Finsbury Park & Ealing Broadway) for barcode scanner installation, I'd have thought.

 

[Edvid]

Of course you can still buy an eTicket from London Terminals (or one from West Ham via Trainline) so the TfL barrier staff are still going to see plenty of barcode tickets.

In relation to BIB TfL have claimed otherwise, to the extent they considered removing West Ham from the handheld barcode scanner trial. I don't know if they did since the FoI-requestable source publication is still on hiatus (4 months and counting, give or take).

 

[Watershed]

In relation to BIB TfL have claimed otherwise, to the extent they considered removing West Ham from the handheld barcode scanner trial. I don't know if they did since the FoI-requestable source publication is still on hiatus (4 months and counting, give or take).

Well given that they suggest any eTickets issued to West Ham would be "wrongly" enabled, that's probably not a huge surprise! eTickets are a fairly new development on the c2c network as a whole, so it will take time before people even realise it's an option. And then get confused as to why they can get an eTicket to Fenchurch/Liverpool St but not West Ham!

 

[tillgab]

I must say that this revises my impression of some of the Disputes & Prosecutions threads. i had no idea of the Byzantine complexity of the shambolic English rail ticketing mess.

 

[redreni]

In this niche situation where the ticket isn't enabled for e-ticket fulfilment and ToD isn't available, one can always turn up at the station and buy a ticket. I must say, though, I am surprised C2C don't have their own ticket vending machine(s) at a major station like West Ham, irrespective of who's station it is.

Incidentally, the list of NR stations in London without ToD facilities has grown since the Elizabeth Line opened, because despite having the capability to provide ToD facilities at Elizabeth Line stations (as is done west of Paddington and east of Liverpool Street), on the core section only Abbey Wood seems to have the ToD facility on Elizabeth Line ticket vending machines (Paddington, Farringdon, Liverpool Street and Stratford all have ToD facilities by dint of other TOCs' machines).

At Tottenham Court Road, this rather abrasive sign informs passengers that they need to go to a National Rail station (ideally by paying money to TfL), either oblivious to - or deliberately seeking to deny because they find it inconvenient - the fact a passenger at Tottenham Court Road is already at a National Rail station. Their suggestion that passengers might want to go two stops on the Elizabeth Line for the longish walk to Liverpool Street when ToD can quite happily be collected from the Thameslink TVMs one stop along at Farringdon seems rather strange as well. This really needs to be sorted out, imho.

Of course, National Rail journeys booked from a core Elizabeth Line station are issued with the origin London Zone U1 or similar, so aren't e-ticketable either (even on Trainline).

 

[Edvid]

TfL recently answered a FoI request on the (non-)availability of ToD at stations they manage. Ticket Vending Machines belonging to other TOCs don't appear to be included.

Request ID: FOI-3629-2425
Date published: 24 February 2025

Thank you for your request received by Transport for London (TfL) on 08 February 2025 asking for information about station ticket machines. Your request has been considered under the requirements of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 and our information access policy.

I can confirm that we do hold the information you require. You asked:

1. Please provide me with the most up-to-date list of all TfL stations where you can collect pre-paid National Rail tickets from TfL ticket machines. For example, you cannot collect such tickets from Canada Water or Whitechapel TfL station ticket machines but can collect from Stratford TfL station ticket machines.

Stations where you can collect pre-ordered National Rail Tickets (Ticket on Departure):

Elizabeth Line​
Station	TVMs at Station
Abbey Wood	2
Acton Main Line	1
Brentwood	2
Canary Wharf EL	4
Chadwell Heath	1
Custom House EL	2
Ealing Broadway	4
Forest Gate	1
Gidea Park	1
Goodmayes	1
Hanwell	1
Harold Wood	2
Hayes & Harlington	1
Ilford	5
Manor Park	1
Maryland	1
Paddington EL	8
Romford	3
Seven Kings	2
Southall	1
Stratford	8
West Drayton	1
West Ealing	1
Woolwich EL	2
London Overground​
Acton Central	2
Anerley	1
Barking Riverside	2
Bethnal Green NR	1
Brockley	1
Brondesbury	2
Brondesbury Park	1
Bruce Grove	1
Bush Hill Park	2
Bushey	2
Caledonian Road & Barnsbury	1
Cambridge Heath	1
Camden Road	1
Canonbury	1
Carpenders Park	1
Chingford	1
Clapham High Street	1
Clapton	1
Crouch Hill	1
Crystal Palace	1
Dalston Junction	3
Dalston Kingsland	1
Edmonton Green	2
Enfield Town	1
Finchley Road & Frognal	1
Forest Hill	2
Gospel Oak	1
Hackney Central	2
Hackney Downs	1
Hackney Wick	1
Haggerston	3
Hampstead Heath	1
Harringay Green Lanes	1
Hatch End	1
Headstone Lane	1
Highams Park	2
Homerton	2
Hoxton	2
Imperial Wharf	1
Kensal Rise	1
Kensington Olympia Rail	3
Kentish Town West	1
Kilburn High Road	1
Leyton Midland Road	1
Leytonstone High Road	1
London Fields	1
New Cross Gate	1
Norwood Junction SR	2
Penge West	1
Rectory Road	1
Rotherhithe	1
Shadwell LO	3
Shepherds Bush LO	1
Shoreditch High Street	2
Silver Street	2
South Acton	1
South Hampstead	1
South Tottenham	1
Southbury	1
St James Street	1
Stoke Newington	1
Surrey Quays	3
Sydenham SR	2
Theobalds Grove	1
Turkey Street	1
Upper Holloway	1
Walthamstow Central	4
Walthamstow Queens Road	1
Wandsworth Road	1
Wanstead Park	1
Watford High Street	1
West Croydon	2
West Hampstead LO	3
White Hart Lane	2
Willesden Junction	2
Wood Street	1
Woodgrange Park	1

2. Please provide the most relevant policy document/position concerning the reason(s) for why not all TfL station ticket machines allow for collection of pre-paid National Rail tickets, when other TfL station ticket machines do. For example, at Stratford TfL station, TfL ticket machines allow for the above but Canada Water TfL station ticket machines do not.

Not all TfL station ticket machines allow for collection of pre-paid National Rail tickets because not all ticket machines are connected to the National Rail ticketing system. The stations where the machines support the function are generally served by either the Elizabeth Line or London Overground lines, as these services form part of the National Rail network.

Ticket machines that are connected to TfL’s own ticketing system cannot support Ticket on Departure. Machines at locations such as Stratford, are in addition to other longer-standing machines, which are part of the Tube network and are therefore not connected to the National Rail system.

So it appears that 6 stations in the Crossrail core have TfL TVMs with connections to the NR ToD system. Bond Street - Whitechapel (inclusive) aren't among them.

 

[Haywain]

So it appears that 6 stations in the Crossrail core have TfL TVMs with connections to the NR ToD system.

Six? Are you counting Stratford and Abbey Wood as being in the core?

 

[Edvid]

Six? Are you counting Stratford and Abbey Wood as being in the core?

Yes, I did. Just checked now and only Abbey Wood (of those two) is in the core, so I was half-right.

That aside, I wasn't expecting the rest of the south-eastern branch to be ToD-enabled.

 

[Haywain]

Yes, I did. Just checked now and only Abbey Wood (of those two) is in the core, so I was half-right.

I wouldn't have said either of those are in the core. And as stations that have long been served by National Rail services it would be a surprise to me if ToD couldn't be collected. Similarly with Paddington where the TfL machines offering ToD doesn't add a great deal.

 

[redreni]

I wouldn't have said either of those are in the core. And as stations that have long been served by National Rail services it would be a surprise to me if ToD couldn't be collected. Similarly with Paddington where the TfL machines offering ToD doesn't add a great deal.

No, nor would I, but TfL obviously do because if you buy a ticket from Abbey Wood to anywhere best reached via the Elizabeth Line, it is issued from Zones U1234 rather than from Abbey Wood.

TfL also added it to their list of stations between which you can make a cross-London transfer by tube/DLR/Elizabeth Line core. If the section of track between Abbey Wood and Woolwich wasn't part of the core, or at least interavailable as far as fares are concerned, maybe that would have routeing implications for some journeys (or require changes to the Routeing Guide that haven't been made)?

 

[Edvid]

I wouldn't have said either of those are in the core.

Depends on your definition of the core, which is either the CCOS (defined as Westbourne Park Jn - Pudding Mill Lane Jn / Abbey Wood), or Paddington - Whitechapel only. There's no in-between unless you expand the latter to Westbourne Park / Stepney Green Jns.

And as stations that have long been served by National Rail services it would be a surprise to me if ToD couldn't be collected. Similarly with Paddington where the TfL machines offering ToD doesn't add a great deal.

On that basis you'd think Liverpool Street would also have it, but LU management of the Liz line station there (not the case for Stratford or Paddington) has done for that particular initiative. Or are there GTR TVMs at the Moorgate end? (* Notwithstanding the GA stuff in (mainline) Liverpool Street)

in any case Canary Wharf, the present Custom House and Woolwich (not Arsenal / Dockyard) have never been served by NR pre-Crossrail.