On-board weekend upgrade to first class

[antharro]

From time to time, I travel from Earley (just outside Reading) to Paddington on a Sunday evening. Usually I end up on an HST and take the weekend upgrade to first class when the guard comes through. This weekend, I missed the HST, and took the next fast train, which was a 165 or 166 from Oxford. I had a day travelcard which I bought just before boarding the SWT train at Earley.

When the train got into Reading, I didn't see a guard, but as the platform staff were trying to get passengers on asap, I figured the procedure would be the same. So I boarded the rear of the middle carriage, looked down through to the third carriage and didn't see a guard. I walked through the train to first and sat down. By the time we were past Ealing Broadway, there was still no sign of the guard, and indeed the train reached Paddington without seeing any member of staff at all.

At Paddington, I stood on the platform for a minute to see if there was a guard. I've read too many stories in the Disputes sub-forum here to risk not holding the correct ticket so thought I should at least try and find the guard even if the journey had finished. No sign, so off I went to the tube.

So my questions are:

1) Are 165/166s driver only operation?
2) If so, how do I get the weekend upgrade to first? It's not something I can do at the ticket machine.
3) If I had been caught sitting in first without a ticket for first, would I still have been prosecuted, even through I had not been able to locate a member of train staff to purchase the upgrade?

Thanks!

 

[TEW]

1) Are 165/166s driver only operation?
2) If so, how do I get the weekend upgrade to first? It's not something I can do at the ticket machine.

Yes, between Paddington and Reading they are.

Well you can't buy it at ticket offices any more either. The FGW Website tells you to upgrade on board. I'd say you just take a seat and await a member of staff to come and take your payment. If no member of staff comes to take payment there isn't anything you can do about it, there's no other way to pay.

 

[PermitToTravel]

1) Are 165/166s driver only operation?

On the mainline, yes, I'm afraid so. They run with a guard on the North Downs Line, and possibly some of the Thames Valley branches (the Greenford branch, at least, is DOO)

2) If so, how do I get the weekend upgrade to first? It's not something I can do at the ticket machine.

I don't think you can on these trains. You could try asking the booking office, but I suspect they can't sell weekend first

3) If I had been caught sitting in first without a ticket for first, would I still have been prosecuted, even through I had not been able to locate a member of train staff to purchase the upgrade?

I wouldn't bet on you not having been prosecuted / being forced to pay to not be prosecuted.

 

[TEW]

I don't think you can on these trains. You could try asking the booking office, but I suspect they can't sell weekend first

I'm pretty sure you can. The FGW website says 'Buy your Weekend First upgrade on board any First Great Western service which has First Class accommodation' and the pricing map includes destinations only served by Turbos.

 

[PermitToTravel]

The website is probably wrong. I'm sure that they would claim that the website is wrong were you to be caught trying it.

 

[Muzer]

In which case, presumably, you'd be able to successfully appeal.

That is, assuming the FGW policy is "sit in first and a guard will upgrade you" as opposed to some other policy like "buy the upgrade beforehand".

 

[TEW]

In which case, presumably, you'd be able to successfully appeal.

That is, assuming the FGW policy is "sit in first and a guard will upgrade you" as opposed to some other policy like "buy the upgrade beforehand".

Yes I think you would. I'm not convinced the website is wrong. It clearly includes Turbo operated services as well as HSTs. Passengers can't exactly distinguish between a DOO and non-DOO service. I really don't think it would be in the TOC's interest to prosecute someone who is willing to upgrade to First Class, in line with their advertised policy. As long as you have the funds on you to pay when/if asked to then you should be fine. It's no different to trying to upgrade on an HST but the guard never managing to get round to upgrade you.

 

[antharro]

Thanks for the replies.

The FGW website states:

Buy your Weekend First upgrade on board any First Great Western service which has First Class accommodation. Please note Weekend First is not available to purchase at ticket offices.

To me, being used to travelling on SWT, I take that to mean that I go sit in first class and wait for the guard to get to me, although it doesn't specifically state that. I also take it literally when it says "any FGW service which has First Class accommodation" - be it Turbo or HST. It also doesn't specifically state that I should find a member of train staff and request an upgrade, or that I shouldn't sit in first until I've paid for the upgrade.

I mention that last point because it could be argued (not convincingly, imo) that if I go to first and wait, that I'm taking up a seat that could be taken by someone who already held a first class ticket, and therefore I shouldn't sit there until I have purchased the upgrade.

So when travelling on an HST, the questions then become;
1) Do I sit in first and wait for the guard? (As I always have done)
2) If I do that and the guard doesn't show up, and I'm reaching the end of the journey, at what point would the onus be on me to go and try to find the guard? ie, to show intention of paying. (Which could be hard if the standard class carriages are busy and also involves leaving my belongings unattended for a time.)

If revenue caught me sitting in first on a weekend, without a ticket, would I be expected to show that I had at least made an effort to find the guard and pay for an upgrade, meaning that they wouldn't be able to say that I'd intentionally got away with sitting in first for the whole journey without paying for it? Or could I get away with saying "I've sat here for my entire journey and the guard hasn't come through and therefore I haven't been able to purchase a ticket"?

I might drop FGW an email and get the "official line" on both HST upgrades and DOO Turbo upgrades. Then keep their reply on my phone, along with a copy of the relevant page of the website! Could be useful if I end up on a Turbo without a first class ticket and revenue are on the train! (Although I would hope that they would be understanding, given the lack of a guard.)

 

[GodAtum]

I've done this for a few months on HSTs and 165/166s and always paid for an upgrade onboard if there was a ticket inspector.

 

[lightbulb]

On Turbos (166s, not 165s) one of the two 1st class compartments is declassified; the differences being that in the declassified compartment the antimacassars and 1st class labels on the windows are removed. Externally, the "1" symbol and yellow stripe are removed, although sometimes the yellow stripe remains.

 

[antharro]

I have an update.

I wrote to FGW about this (and other issues), and received the following reply.

I was sorry to read that you have been experiencing difficulty when there has been no Train Manager available from which to purchase the Weekend First upgrade. I appreciate the difficult position this puts you in - whilst you have every intention of purchasing the upgrade, this has not been possible and I can understand your concerns should Revenue Protection staff question your ticket.

I can advise that we do not service every train with a Train Manager as not all services require one, and further to this we often don't have the staff available to man every train. Despite our major recruitment and training programme, there are times when we just can't offer the full range of services. I understand how frustrating this must be for you when you want to purchase the upgrade, however this offer is subject to availability and we are are not obligated to provide it for all weekend First Class services.

I can confirm that the only way to purchase the upgrade is on board the services so I do apologise, but if there is no Train Manager then you will not be able to purchase the upgrade.

I wrote back asking them to clarify:

As I have no way in advance of knowing which services will have a Train Manager on-board, (other than assuming that all HST services will have a TM), would it be considered acceptable for me to sit in first class regardless?

If there is a guard on-board then I will be able to purchase the upgrade. If revenue are on-board then hopefully they will accept that due to the lack of a guard, I was not able to purchase the upgrade, but that I would be willing to purchase if they would be willing to sell!

And I received the following in reply: (copied verbatim)

Regrettably, you cannot board first class carriage if you do not have valid ticket. I understand your concern that you cannot assume which service would have Train Manager to upgrade your ticket. However, if you ware found by Revenue Protecion staff without upgrade or valid ticket you will be charged penalty.

The message I'm receiving here is that they offer the upgrade, but can't guarantee it's available due to a lack of staff, and, if I sit in first with the intention of upgrading, and Revenue happen to be on the train, I will be penalty fared. So what is the point of advertising the service as being available on "any FGW service which has First Class accommodation"? The FGW website still states:

Buy your Weekend First upgrade on board any First Great Western service which has First Class accommodation. Please note Weekend First is not available to purchase at ticket offices.

 

[Qwerty133]

I have an update.

I wrote to FGW about this (and other issues), and received the following reply.



I wrote back asking them to clarify:



And I received the following in reply: (copied verbatim)



The message I'm receiving here is that they offer the upgrade, but can't guarantee it's available due to a lack of staff, and, if I sit in first with the intention of upgrading, and Revenue happen to be on the train, I will be penalty fared. So what is the point of advertising the service as being available on "any FGW service which has First Class accommodation"? The FGW website still states:

So they can get some nice large out of court settlements from unsuspecting passengers?
I'm sure they will claim its a honest mistake and no malpractice is intended.

 

[jkdd77]

IMO, based on the plain and unequivocal wording on the FGW website, a passenger who sat in first class, at weekends, with a valid standard class ticket, and actively attempted to pay the advertised weekend first class upgrade at the first opportunity after boarding, would:
1) not be liable to a PF (albeit that an appeal would likely fail regardless due to the lack of independence and impartiality of the appeals system);
2) not be successfully convicted under byelaw 18, and;
3) not be successfully convicted under the Regulation of Railways Act;
due to the express permission to buy on board in these circumstances as contained on the FGW website, and in leaflets at stations.

Indeed, the advertised 'zonal map' at https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/~/media/PDF/Routemaps/Weekend-First-Zones.pdf
implies that it is possible to buy an upgrade even on routes without HSTs, (e.g. £5 for Basingstoke- Reading), provided, of course, that one is travelling on a FGW service.

What happens if a passenger wants to travel and upgrade from, say, Basingstoke to Plymouth, via Reading, using FGW services only? The wording at: https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/train-times-and-tickets/ticket-types/leisure-tickets

Buy your Weekend First upgrade on board any First Great Western service which has First Class accommodation... If you need to change onto another First Great Western train as part of your journey, you pay one fare for the whole journey, rather than one fare for each part of the journey.

strongly implies that it is possible to buy the whole upgrade on board a Basingstoke- Reading FGW local service, rather than being forced to sit in standard class until joining a HST at Reading.

It would be bizarre indeed if a Plymouth- Basingstoke passenger paying the upgrade could benefit from first class travel on both legs, but a Basingstoke- Plymouth passenger could not, simply because the order of travel is reversed.

It wouldn't be the first time poorly trained FGW customer services have incorrectly warned of PFs in circumstances when they are not applicable; a few months ago, they told a forum member that a passenger travelling with a time-barred (Super) Off-Peak ticket could be PF'd, which is, of course, untrue, assuming there is no other reason why the ticket is invalid.

 

[VauxhallandI]

I have an update.

I wrote to FGW about this (and other issues), and received the following reply.



I wrote back asking them to clarify:



And I received the following in reply: (copied verbatim)



The message I'm receiving here is that they offer the upgrade, but can't guarantee it's available due to a lack of staff, and, if I sit in first with the intention of upgrading, and Revenue happen to be on the train, I will be penalty fared. So what is the point of advertising the service as being available on "any FGW service which has First Class accommodation"? The FGW website still states:

Farce.

Did you respond with the quote from the website and ask they how that fits to their win-win rigged set up?

 

[Sleepy]

Sounds to me that FGW have decided that 1st class on DOO services at weekends are a free upgrade as they shot themselves in the foot by deciding to stop selling weekend upgrades at ticket offices, unlikely to change with reducing 1st class on HST stock.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I think they're getting garbled (and, given their letters, that English is not their first language). In reality I'd expect an RPI to sell you the upgrade. They're probably assuming that so few people would bother paying the upgrade on a Turbo that there's no worry.

I'm sure Flamingo can tell you what he'd do anyway!

 

[anme]

Does this count as a "lack of opportunity to buy" the ticket (*)? As we know well, you can't be penalised if you haven't had an opportunity to buy a ticket before being checked.

(*) ok, this is an upgrade, not a ticket - does it count as the same thing?

 

[antharro]

I do intend to write back to them as I am not particularly impressed by this. I will update this thread once I hear back.

 

[Flamingo]

Chances of having an RPI on an HST between Pad & Reading is about the square root of bugger-all.

I'm afraid I know very little about Turbo operation, but I would echo the advice given in an earlier post, sit in 1st clutching your fiver, if somebody takes it from you fine, if nobody takes it from you then put it back in your pocket as you leave.

(The customer services replies are basically saying this, but trying to do so without contradicting the NRCOC as that opens all sorts of cans of worms.)

 

[jon0844]

I went to Brighton yesterday with a Gold Card First Class supplement. Took 20 minutes or more at Welwyn Garden City the day before to get the tickets and supplements, as I didn't want to miss the train arguing about their existence on the day.

Before the guy phoned for advice on what they were and how to issue them, he was basically telling me to just try and get the supplement at St Albans - but I knew I'd have probably have problems.

It did get it me wondering about whether we could have boarded, sat in first and then had the money in hand should revenue inspectors get on - arguing that nobody ever seems to know how to do them, or even what they are. But I figured it wasn't worth the risk as it probably wouldn't have ended well!

Maybe I should ask FCC what their policy is. It's not quite the same thing, given its not an upgrade everyone can get, but if you can't buy them online, from a TVM or staff then should you lose out?

And this is a nice bit of extra money for a TOC, so you'd think they'd do everything to sell them to passengers.

 

[Abpj17]

I think that probably would have been Russian roulette - would the RPI have known about them? (I wouldn't trust all FCC RPI to be reasonable)

 

[lightbulb]

Chances of having an RPI on an HST between Pad & Reading is about the square root of bugger-all.

I'm afraid I know very little about Turbo operation, but I would echo the advice given in an earlier post, sit in 1st clutching your fiver, if somebody takes it from you fine, if nobody takes it from you then put it back in your pocket as you leave.

(The customer services replies are basically saying this, but trying to do so without contradicting the NRCOC as that opens all sorts of cans of worms.)

As far as Turbos go, if you're on an FGW class 166, there's little point paying the weekend first, as one of the two 1st class compartments on a three-car set is declassified, usually by removing the "1" symbol on the exterior, and sometimes removing the yellow stripe too. On a class 165, there's only one 1st class compartment, so it's not declassified. It's also far inferior to a 166, as there are no tables.