On board catering: Which routes should (or shouldn't) provide it?

[jon0844]

This. It loses huge amounts of money on virtually every line. Scrap it, and reduce ticket prices by the amount saved. Advertise this and people will buy into the "bring your own" mentality.

Great. Knock a penny off the fare and then make sure everyone realises they need to get to their station a bit earlier to buy some food/snacks and drink.

And if you have a really early train journey, and the shops aren't open yet, best remember to buy the night before.

I don't see a need for trolley service on many trains, especially peak time commuter services, but there has to be a market (as proven with examples here) on many leisure services and early/late services, especially long distance ones where you might want a coffee and the one you bought four hours ago has gone somewhat cold...

I do think one solution that has been used elsewhere in the world is vending machines. Yes, the choice might be more limited but you can then provide some snacks and drinks without any staff at all. You just need to maintain them. By all means make them card only for security, as I'm sure very few people wouldn't have a card (here's an additional idea; a TOC could sell prepaid cards for use on their machines, as well as anywhere else, if they wanted to earn a little commission).

For the record, I rarely travel on long distance services so usually am one of those who grabs a coffee before boarding, but on trips from St Albans to Brighton, or London to York, I'd be far more likely to get something. And even if I choose to stock up in advance, not everyone does - or should have to.

 

[takno]

I do think one solution that has been used elsewhere in the world is vending machines. Yes, the choice might be more limited but you can then provide some snacks and drinks without any staff at all. You just need to maintain them. By all means make them card only for security, as I'm sure very few people wouldn't have a card (here's an additional idea; a TOC could sell prepaid cards for use on their machines, as well as anywhere else, if they wanted to earn a little commission).

Just a few reasons vending machines suck:

• I like to visit the buffet is for a wee chat, which vending machines aren't much cop at.
• We're (quite sensibly) too risk-averse to sell hot drinks from buffets without a bag, so what are the chances we're going to let people handle their own from a vending machine?
• One of the issues with train buffets right now is that there's always a queue caused by the card payment machine messing up, so removing cash and the human help from the equation is likely to make things worse.
• It takes a fair amount of time to stock up (and potentially clean) a vending machine, so it's just not going to happen in tight turnarounds, and if it's attempted it could end up delaying trains.

 

[yorksrob]

This. It loses huge amounts of money on virtually every line. Scrap it, and reduce ticket prices by the amount saved. Advertise this and people will buy into the "bring your own" mentality.

Funnily enough, I don't recall any reduction in ticket prices when the trolley was withdrawn from the Ashford - Charing Cross line, therefore I won't be supporting this particular suggestion.

 

[DarloRich]

Remove it altogether from every single service.

not sure I would bin it entirely - There are many times I have been on a long London - Scotland service and been very glad of a brew and a kit kat, especially on East Coast who sell Yorkshire Tea.

 

[Bletchleyite]

not sure I would bin it entirely - There are many times I have been on a long London - Scotland service and been very glad of a brew and a kit kat, especially on East Coast who sell Yorkshire Tea.

It probably has a role along the lines of what you suggest on services that have an end to end running time of more than, say, about 2 hours, and where Advances are common, so passengers gasping for a cup of tea can't just get off and join the next train in half an hour.

 

[Scotrail84]

The days of a separate Restaurant Car are long-gone and won't return.

What about the sleeper?

 

[CheesyChips]

I had a pasty on the Stourbridge shuttle. Does this count?

 

[jon0844]

Just a few reasons vending machines suck:

• I like to visit the buffet is for a wee chat, which vending machines aren't much cop at.
• We're (quite sensibly) too risk-averse to sell hot drinks from buffets without a bag, so what are the chances we're going to let people handle their own from a vending machine?
• One of the issues with train buffets right now is that there's always a queue caused by the card payment machine messing up, so removing cash and the human help from the equation is likely to make things worse.
• It takes a fair amount of time to stock up (and potentially clean) a vending machine, so it's just not going to happen in tight turnarounds, and if it's attempted it could end up delaying trains.

Some TVMs now have cameras so you can see and talk to a real person in a call centre somewhere. Maybe that's an idea so you can still ask a real person for a can of coke and a packet of crisps, and have some banter?!

You're right that hot drinks might not be available, but with regards to restocking and card payment times, I'd say that a contactless card reader should be quite sufficient and fast. At Westfield Stratford, all the vending machines got CPC acceptance ahead of the Olympics (paid for by Visa I assume) and it works great. You can't actually swipe or use chip & pin - just contactless, but CPCs have been around since 2009 or so. I assume all banks now issue cards with support?

And most diagrams have some recovery time during the day, so there should be a chance to restock without much fuss - or just do them once per day. If they're so popular they keep running out then there should be a shop or trolley on them! This idea was for services where a TOC doesn't believe there's sufficient demand.

 

[D6975]

I agree that most routes don't need a catering service. It's the long distance/slow routes that need to have something provided.

I often used to buy from the trolley on the 0550 to Fort Bill and the 0625 to Wick when bashing tractors.

Regarding ice cream, they used to sell it between Southampton and Bournemouth in the summer. Is this still going on?

 

[maire23]

With regards to the contactless card question- there are still many people who do not have or want contactless cards. They are not routinely issued on basic bank accounts for instance and some people dislike contactless and can request cards without that facility.
I would say catering is probably better served on longer distance services only.

 

[fowler9]

With regards to the contactless card question- there are still many people who do not have or want contactless cards. They are not routinely issued on basic bank accounts for instance and some people dislike contactless and can request cards without that facility.
I would say catering is probably better served on longer distance services only.

Yeah I'm not mad on contactless. Purely because the money just seems to disappear for 2 days but still shows in your available funds. Needless to say I got caught out by this once. In this day and age why does it take two days? I can wire money to my mates pretty much instantly and it shows that it has left my account.

 

[jon0844]

As I suggested before, a TOC could sell prepaid cards for use on board (and with the added benefit of being usable anywhere) or even potentially allow their travel smartcards to work. Of course they need to get them properly working for travel first!

 

[takno]

Yeah I'm not mad on contactless. Purely because the money just seems to disappear for 2 days but still shows in your available funds. Needless to say I got caught out by this once. In this day and age why does it take two days? I can wire money to my mates pretty much instantly and it shows that it has left my account.

Seems to show up pretty quickly with my bank (Bank of Scotland). I've heard quite a few RBS users saying much the same as you though, so some banks clearly do have issues. The workarounds I've seen are using Apple/Google Pay on mobile, or getting a Monzo card (pre-pay Mastercard that auto-tops up from your bank account and notifies your phone within a minute or so every time the card is used).

My main problem with all of this is that I think catering should be making money on a lot more services, and the main problem is that it's just become regarded as a cost centre and put into managed decline. Nobody is trying any new ideas, and what new ideas people are coming up with are cost-cutting like vending machines rather than improving the service proposition. Even worse, when new ideas are tried they are tried in isolation, without enough advertising, and without resolving the problem of the buffet being unavailable, understocked or closed for a staff changeover. We used to manage to run a Subway 24 hours a day without ever closing for shift changes, so why on earth would you need to do it twice in an 8 hour train journey?

Once you've got a service you're committed to you can start to ask questions like why would you have a buffet counter and still microwave sandwiches when you could get a panini press? Why are Virgin's sandwiches such a limited range, and all so old-fashioned? Are trolleys really the best way to deliver food, or should the trolley concentrate on drinks and taking orders for food, then deliver up the food from a static point? How about app-based ordering?

 

[jon0844]

I was never suggesting vending machines should replace staff where a service is viable, and I think there are many (and suggested some).

I think that if you had either a trolley OR vending machine, you'd potentially see an uptake in trolley usage. Why? Because if someone is wondering whether to buy before travel or during, they may opt for the former if there's a chance there's no trolley.

But if you had vending machines as a 'fall back' then you'd be more inclined to wait.

That's just a theory, but I expect a lot of people don't chance getting on to find there is no trolley because a) there isn't one on that route/train or b) the service isn't available today.

Sure a vending machine could be broken, but on trains I've been on, there are usually 2 or 3. So you have SOME choices.

 

[DarloRich]

Regarding ice cream, they used to sell it between Southampton and Bournemouth in the summer. Is this still going on?

I have bought ice cream from the trolley run by the Friends of the Settle & Carlisle line. Very nice it was to!

 

[dk1]

Pleasantly surprised on the busy 09:52 Ely-Stansted Airport this morning when the trolley appeared. It's been years since XC withdrew from the few token services they offered East of Peterborough. According to the friendly catering lady it is now offered on most trains & was introduced 3 weeks ago.

 

[Shadow Cat]

To be honest, the only times I've had catering in the UK is Virgin First Class

First time was towards Birmingham on a Pendolino, I told the woman someone else was sat in my seat before and asked for a new cup n stuff, she ignored me and made me a coffee in some random dirty cup that was already at my seat (What I clearly didn't drink and when I mentioned this to her again, she told me to stop causing trouble)

Second time was Kings Cross to Leeds back in March, I got a muffin with a misleading use-by date (Listed as the 02.03.17 but I guess/hope it was meant to say 02.04.17) and once again a dirty cup, this time with Lipstick on it.


Thalys is far better service

 

[sheff1]

To be honest, the only times I've had catering in the UK is Virgin First Class

First time was towards Birmingham on a Pendolino, I told the woman someone else was sat in my seat before and asked for a new cup n stuff, she ignored me and made me a coffee in some random dirty cup that was already at my seat (What I clearly didn't drink and when I mentioned this to her again, she told me to stop causing trouble)

Second time was Kings Cross to Leeds back in March, I got a muffin with a misleading use-by date (Listed as the 02.03.17 but I guess/hope it was meant to say 02.04.17) and once again a dirty cup, this time with Lipstick on it.

Welcome to the "Virgin Experience" - something to be avoided whenever possible.

 

[Jonfun]

There's no excuse for the wrong date to be on a food item. The stores staff should be checking it and double checking it before it is delivered to the train and the member of catering staff receiving the delivery should be checking it when it's accepted on board the train.
If it gets to the point where it enters the passenger's hands with an incorrect date then there is a serious failing in the food safety system, somewhere.

 

[adrock1976]

To be honest, the only times I've had catering in the UK is Virgin First Class

First time was towards Birmingham on a Pendolino, I told the woman someone else was sat in my seat before and asked for a new cup n stuff, she ignored me and made me a coffee in some random dirty cup that was already at my seat (What I clearly didn't drink and when I mentioned this to her again, she told me to stop causing trouble)

Second time was Kings Cross to Leeds back in March, I got a muffin with a misleading use-by date (Listed as the 02.03.17 but I guess/hope it was meant to say 02.04.17) and once again a dirty cup, this time with Lipstick on it.


Thalys is far better service

Welcome to the "Virgin Experience" - something to be avoided whenever possible.

I think it is fair to say that Shadow Cat most certainly did not "Arrive Awesome" (whoever thought that slogan up is probably the type of individual who likes to spout corporate bollocks in every conversation).

 

[daikilo]

In my many decades of travel on UK trains I have never had cause to complain about sit-down, counter or trolley service. I even liked what Prue Leith described as the pre-Travellers Fayre "soggy" cheese and tomato sandwiches (though I am more discerning on the cheese and bread these days). Maybe I am just too realistic.

 

[island]

I think we are all forgetting the key issue here that is the travesty that you cannot buy an ice cream on board. What is that all about?
Ok not on a 153, but why you can't buy one in the on board shop I will never know. Freezers are not that power hungry.

We keep them stored in freezers at Settle and Appleby and transport them in a thermal bag.

I bought two on a 2-car Kiha 100 on the Ōfunato line a couple of years ago. They were in a thermal bag and probably kept in a freezer at Ichinoseki. The trolley had an impressive line in food and drink.

 

[island]

Yeah I'm not mad on contactless. Purely because the money just seems to disappear for 2 days but still shows in your available funds. Needless to say I got caught out by this once. In this day and age why does it take two days? I can wire money to my mates pretty much instantly and it shows that it has left my account.

Seems to show up pretty quickly with my bank (Bank of Scotland). I've heard quite a few RBS users saying much the same as you though, so some banks clearly do have issues.

The root cause of this is the set of risk parameters the card issuer chooses, the background processes behind card transactions, and a desire to make contactless transactions fast.

With a Chip & PIN transaction, the card terminal will always (where capable) seek to contact the card issuer to notify it of the transaction by seeking an authorisation. This does not happen by default with contactless card transactions. Some card issuers will set some or all of their cards to seek an authorisation either for all transactions or for transactions over a certain amount. Most commonly this happens for debit cards where the account holder has poor credit so the issuer is particularly concerned about ensuring they do not go overdrawn.

Occasionally, if too many contactless transactions are made with no intervening chip & PIN transaction, the card will block further contactless transactions as a security measure and will re-enable when a chip & PIN transaction is performed successfully.

Phone-based and similar applications which can't do a chip & PIN transaction will always seek an authorisation, as there is no way of verifying that the phone hasn't been stolen.

Seeking an authorisation will put the transaction in your pending transactions.

All transactions are transmitted overnight to the card issuer, usually same day but sometimes a little more slowly. For a contactless transaction where no authorisation has been sought, the first thing your bank knows about the transaction is this time. This is why many contactless card transactions don't get seen in pending transactions.

 

[fowler9]

The root cause of this is the set of risk parameters the card issuer chooses, the background processes behind card transactions, and a desire to make contactless transactions fast.

With a Chip & PIN transaction, the card terminal will always (where capable) seek to contact the card issuer to notify it of the transaction by seeking an authorisation. This does not happen by default with contactless card transactions. Some card issuers will set some or all of their cards to seek an authorisation either for all transactions or for transactions over a certain amount. Most commonly this happens for debit cards where the account holder has poor credit so the issuer is particularly concerned about ensuring they do not go overdrawn.

Occasionally, if too many contactless transactions are made with no intervening chip & PIN transaction, the card will block further contactless transactions as a security measure and will re-enable when a chip & PIN transaction is performed successfully.

Phone-based and similar applications which can't do a chip & PIN transaction will always seek an authorisation, as there is no way of verifying that the phone hasn't been stolen.

Seeking an authorisation will put the transaction in your pending transactions.

All transactions are transmitted overnight to the card issuer, usually same day but sometimes a little more slowly. For a contactless transaction where no authorisation has been sought, the first thing your bank knows about the transaction is this time. This is why many contactless card transactions don't get seen in pending transactions.

Many thanks for the detailed explanation.

 

[ChilternTurbo]

Due to a limited time between connections and a need to caffeine, I used the trolley on board a GWR service between Oxford and Great Malvern last week. I realise that there are limitations with what can be provided on a trolley and I'm not expecting a mobile barista but this "coffee" as quite possibly the most revolting dishwater that I've ever tasted! I also had a flapjack which was quite nice but I as didn't get much change out of £5 it should have been. I don't think I'd bother with the GWR trolley again.

 

[Busaholic]

Due to a limited time between connections and a need to caffeine, I used the trolley on board a GWR service between Oxford and Great Malvern last week. I realise that there are limitations with what can be provided on a trolley and I'm not expecting a mobile barista but this "coffee" as quite possibly the most revolting dishwater that I've ever tasted! I also had a flapjack which was quite nice but I as didn't get much change out of £5 it should have been. I don't think I'd bother with the GWR trolley again.

Probably more likely to have a barrister on that train than a barista.

 

[The Growlery]

you may, or may not be interested to know that last month I suffered a 10 hour journey from Rome to Palermo with ZERO catering facilities, not even a cup of tea. This was
n't a one off, it's every day on this route

 

[Darandio]

you may, or may not be interested to know that last month I suffered a 10 hour journey from Rome to Palermo with ZERO catering facilities, not even a cup of tea. This was
n't a one off, it's every day on this route

Do the Italians actually do tea? It seems just far too unrebellious for them.

 

[andrewkeith5]

Phone-based and similar applications which can't do a chip & PIN transaction will always seek an authorisation, as there is no way of verifying that the phone hasn't been stolen.

Seeking an authorisation will put the transaction in your pending transactions.

Just for clarification, Apple Pay does not require an online authorisation, as an Apple Pay transaction is not considered as unverified - the customer verifies themselves through their fingerprint in place of their PIN number.

This is why Apple Pay is permitted to support transactions of theoretically unlimited value, where it is properly supported by retailers (for example, Waitrose accept up to £250 by Apple Pay, I believe Boots are the same, and in an Apple Store you can pay an unlimited amount using is).

 

[jon0844]

in an Apple Store you can pay an unlimited amount using it.

Which is necessary given the cost of buying even a simple adapter in there.