On board catering: Which routes should (or shouldn't) provide it?

[Parallel]

I've been thinking about this a lot since Chiltern have removed catering from all of their services. Chiltern's argument was that on board catering on their services was no longer viable due to passengers buying food and drink before they board the train.

At the other end of the spectrum, Arriva Trains Wales provides catering on their Heart Of Wales Line services, some of which are formed of 1 x 153. I will admit, the first time I used the line last year I initially thought it was madness, but as the journey went on, it seemed that 75% of the carriage (and it was well loaded) bought something from the trolley at least once. It was particularly popular when a large group (10+) boarded at Llandovery and each of them bought a can of alcohol and snacks.

It appears that in this day and age, on board catering will be most popular if, 1: There is little competition at stations or nearby. 2: The average passenger journey time on the train is around (or exceeds) an hour. 3: There is a decent passenger flow.

Which services (where it is not provided) do you think catering would be popular? And which services (where it is provided) would you remove it from (if any)?

 

[PHILIPE]

GWR provide (outsourced, Gourmet I think but not sure) a trolley service on the Cardiff to Portsmouth runs but come lunchtime Saturday it ceases to operate until Monday morning. Passengers still travel over the weekend.

 

[yorksrob]

Ashford to Charing Cross should still have a trolley service IMO.

 

[GW43125]

In the case of Chiltern, their breakfast roll & coffee deal was much better than anything you could get at the station, it surprises me they weren't making enough off this. South London to birmingham via circa 45 mins at marylebone is not a fun experience without a cup of coffee.

 

[dk1]

Everything Intercity or regional medium to long distance. I really like to see onboard catering & make a purchase almost every time & always have done.

 

[anti-pacer]

Colne to Preston. I'd love to see a trolley bounce its way down a Pacer.

I joke of course, but I definitely think LM's Crewe-London Euston service is a contender. Maybe Northern could introduce it on Leeds-Nottingham and Sheffield-Bridlington/Scarborough services.

 

[robbeech]

I'm not sure about the Leeds Nottingham service, it is 2 hours granted but there are faster services between the 2 that involve a change, and some that take a little longer with a change where part is on a cross country service that does have a trolley already. I don't know the figures but you might find the number of thru passengers end to end is lower.
The Bridlington / Scarborough service is more suitable i agree.

 

[ComUtoR]

Remove it altogether from every single service.

 

[anti-pacer]

Remove it altogether from every single service.

Why though?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would almost go as far to say that a DB style seated Bistrowagen or restaurant car would still be worthwhile on very long journeys, but otherwise it serves little purpose as people tend to buy before they board.

I occasionally buy a coffee, but that won't keep the staff in the proverbial beer and fags. OTOH, there are plenty of long journeys when I'd have quite happily coughed up well over the odds for a proper nice sit down meal.

 

[fowler9]

Colne to Preston. I'd love to see a trolley bounce its way down a Pacer.

I joke of course, but I definitely think LM's Crewe-London Euston service is a contender. Maybe Northern could introduce it on Leeds-Nottingham and Sheffield-Bridlington/Scarborough services.

Colne to Preston tickled me. Ha ha.

 

[Fuzzytop]

Interestingly I was on a CrossCountry service ex-Brum towards Stansted the other week. These services usually only have catering up to Peterborough, but the trolley kept on going at least until I got off at Cambridge. I was very surprised at how many passengers took something from the trolley - it did a roaring trade.

This is of course despite Peterborough and Ely having decent catering (and March with its shop, if that's still there) and many journeys on the end of the route being fairly short. On the basis of that journey, I'd say anything that would have classed as 'Alphaline' back in the day should work with catering provision for as much of the journey as possible - most certainly CrossCountry all the way to Stansted.

 

[PeterC]

These days I seldom make a lot of short rail journeys so haven't had a need for on board catering for a long time and don't know what the availibility is like these days.

Certainly when I used to make more longer journeys, and usually wanted to buy something, you simply couldn't rely on the service being there as advertised. Taht results in a vicious circle as people the people who want refreshments make sure by getting carry outs before travelling.

 

[dk1]

Interestingly I was on a CrossCountry service ex-Brum towards Stansted the other week. These services usually only have catering up to Peterborough, but the trolley kept on going at least until I got off at Cambridge. I was very surprised at how many passengers took something from the trolley - it did a roaring trade.

This is of course despite Peterborough and Ely having decent catering (and March with its shop, if that's still there) and many journeys on the end of the route being fairly short. On the basis of that journey, I'd say anything that would have classed as 'Alphaline' back in the day should work with catering provision for as much of the journey as possible - most certainly CrossCountry all the way to Stansted.

Not sure why when much of XCs catering is so good that they don't try to extend it slightly. When theres Nothing before Plymouth/Edinburgh it is quite frankly so shameful that Cambridge/Stansted doesn't doesn't stand a chance.

 

[Parallel]

In GWR land, I think a Rail Gourmet trolley on board Bristol - Weymouth would be popular, particularly in summer. Possibly extending to/from Gloucester too. Journey time Bristol - Weymouth is over 2hrs long with plenty doing the whole run (Westbury - Weymouth is about 1h30).

Also Barnstaple to Exeter. Usually fairly well loaded and most seem to do the run which is just over an hour.

Penzance - Plymouth locals.

The only branch line in Cornwall I think MIGHT justify it would be Newquay - Par. There is very little local traffic on the line and those using the line tend to be travelling onwards to other destinations by rail, so do the entire length. Still would be a risk and might not be that popular but the average journey time must be the longer here than all other branch line services in Devon and Cornwall, except Barnstaple.

Obviously this would only happen once the 143s and 150/1s no longer work on the lines.
--
Bizarrely the trolleys don't seem that popular on the Cardiff - Portsmouths. I'm not sure if it's because quite often catering isn't available (so therefore not a reliable service), or if the train is wedged and the trolley can't get through, and also more use the trains shorter distance journeys. The trolleys on the Marches and Cambrian seem well used.

 

[PHILIPE]

In GWR land, I think a Rail Gourmet trolley on board Bristol - Weymouth would be popular, particularly in summer. Possibly extending to/from Gloucester too. Journey time Bristol - Weymouth is over 2hrs long with plenty doing the whole run (Westbury - Weymouth is about 1h30).

Also Barnstaple to Exeter. Usually fairly well loaded and most seem to do the run which is just over an hour.

Penzance - Plymouth locals.

The only branch line in Cornwall I think MIGHT justify it would be Newquay - Par. There is very little local traffic on the line and those using the line tend to be travelling onwards to other destinations by rail, so do the entire length. Still would be a risk and might not be that popular but the average journey time must be the longer here than all other branch line services in Devon and Cornwall, except Barnstaple.

Obviously this would only happen once the 143s and 150/1s no longer work on the lines.
--
Bizarrely the trolleys don't seem that popular on the Cardiff - Portsmouths. I'm not sure if it's because quite often catering isn't available (so therefore not a reliable service), or if the train is wedged and the trolley can't get through, and also more use the trains shorter distance journeys. The trolleys on the Marches and Cambrian seem well used.

In Wessex days, there were trolleys in Cornwall and on the Weymouth route.

 

[dk1]

In GWR land, I think a Rail Gourmet trolley on board Bristol - Weymouth would be popular, particularly in summer. Possibly extending to/from Gloucester too. Journey time Bristol - Weymouth is over 2hrs long with plenty doing the whole run (Westbury - Weymouth is about 1h30).

Also Barnstaple to Exeter. Usually fairly well loaded and most seem to do the run which is just over an hour.

Penzance - Plymouth locals.

The only branch line in Cornwall I think MIGHT justify it would be Newquay - Par. There is very little local traffic on the line and those using the line tend to be travelling onwards to other destinations by rail, so do the entire length. Still would be a risk and might not be that popular but the average journey time must be the longer here than all other branch line services in Devon and Cornwall, except Barnstaple.

There used to be catering on selected Barnstaple services under Wessex Trains. Catering was provided from Newton Abbot & should it be possible once longer distance Penzance, Manchester etc routes where covered, then this route would be provided also.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I guess trolleys get a *bit* useful on lines where there is poor station provision.

 

[robbeech]

I think we are all forgetting the key issue here that is the travesty that you cannot buy an ice cream on board. What is that all about?
Ok not on a 153, but why you can't buy one in the on board shop I will never know. Freezers are not that power hungry.

 

[philthetube]

Colne to Preston. I'd love to see a trolley bounce its way down a Pacer.

I joke of course, but I definitely think LM's Crewe-London Euston service is a contender. Maybe Northern could introduce it on Leeds-Nottingham and Sheffield-Bridlington/Scarborough services.

I agree, that journey on a 142 feels as if it is three hours.

 

[185143]

I think we are all forgetting the key issue here that is the travesty that you cannot buy an ice cream on board. What is that all about?
Ok not on a 153, but why you can't buy one in the on board shop I will never know. Freezers are not that power hungry.

You need to go onto an S&C train with a trolley service then. You're in for a pleasant surprise!

 

[endecotp]

Tea, coffee and a biscuit - yes.

Sandwiches - no, because I can't rely on it so if the journey is over a mealtime I'll buy something in advance. Either there will be no serivce at all, or there will be no sandwiches left, or there will only be some unpleasant egg and cress option. I remember one evening WCML journey where there was nothing left in the buffet and I had to decide whether to get off in maybe Warrington and waste at least an hour or spend the rest of the journey with a rumbling tummy.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I dont get this provision so good at stations thing. If theres no boots/wh/supermarket then anything resembling a light meal e.g a sandwitch or salad is iether very limmited or outragously chingy and if your somewhere its starbucks/costa or nothing the options are often crap IMO. I would love for some train opperater to take thwrisk of offering propper hot sit down meals at a decent price. I know XC tried it pre ordering but it wasnt well marketed, wasnt reliable and has I think been stopped.

I would dum catering on Edinburgh Glasgow QS accept for First who could be given vouchers for using on station or served from a coffee cart as they borded.

Also worth noting that sometimes a coffee on train is now cheeper than many stations.

 

[bb21]

You need to go onto an S&C train with a trolley service then. You're in for a pleasant surprise!

Spoilt for choices last time I was on it.

 

[Robertj21a]

I can't see the point of on-board catering other than for the longest services (say, 2-3+ hours). So many people take their own food/drink, or buy at a supermarket near the station, that it must be virtually impossible to make any commercial enterprise profitable. It may be worthwhile on specific trips but that ignores the need for all the people and stock being in the right place, and all the other less profitable trips that would also have to be done.

 

[Gareth Marston]

In GWR land, I think a Rail Gourmet trolley on board Bristol - Weymouth would be popular, particularly in summer. Possibly extending to/from Gloucester too. Journey time Bristol - Weymouth is over 2hrs long with plenty doing the whole run (Westbury - Weymouth is about 1h30).

Also Barnstaple to Exeter. Usually fairly well loaded and most seem to do the run which is just over an hour.

Penzance - Plymouth locals.

The only branch line in Cornwall I think MIGHT justify it would be Newquay - Par. There is very little local traffic on the line and those using the line tend to be travelling onwards to other destinations by rail, so do the entire length. Still would be a risk and might not be that popular but the average journey time must be the longer here than all other branch line services in Devon and Cornwall, except Barnstaple.

Obviously this would only happen once the 143s and 150/1s no longer work on the lines.
--
Bizarrely the trolleys don't seem that popular on the Cardiff - Portsmouths. I'm not sure if it's because quite often catering isn't available (so therefore not a reliable service), or if the train is wedged and the trolley can't get through, and also more use the trains shorter distance journeys. The trolleys on the Marches and Cambrian seem well used.

The argument that you can buy lots of goodies from lovely shops at the station or near it before you board falls flat on its on its face in many rural areas. Which is why the trolley gets used especially on longer runs.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'd be happy with TOCs properly stocking the catering services that they do operate first. I was on the 1230 VTEC London-Edinburgh on Sunday lunchtime. The entire sandwich stock out of London was two- count them, two- bacon rolls.

That's why they don't make money, they don't stock the things that people want to buy.

On-board catering is some of the most profitable parts of the business for the likes of EasyJet and Ryanair. Three hours on a plane isn't very different to three hours on a train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On-board catering is some of the most profitable parts of the business for the likes of EasyJet and Ryanair. Three hours on a plane isn't very different to three hours on a train.

It is in one massively significant way - on a plane, the mandatory staff responsible for safety are also serving the food - ergo it basically has zero staff cost. That is enough to tip the balance from it being a basket case to it being profitable. There's also an imaginary captive market (a lot of people think you can't carry stuff bought at the airport on when you mostly can, though rules on hot drinks do vary).

If you were allowed[1] pilot-only operation (POO? ) I doubt it'd work quite as profitably for them.

TBH, if I were setting up a train service from scratch I'd combine roles[2] to be more like air stewards/stewardesses, but that's never going to happen on the existing railways, if nothing else the unions would never have it.

[1] It is allowed on very small planes, I've been on a floatplane in Canada that had one pilot as the only member of staff, the safety demo was on an iPad.

[2] i.e. have the first class steward and/or buffet/trolley steward also safety trained as a guard, and involved in the dispatch process etc, and checking tickets as they serve food, rather than one person doing each role. Not necessarily fewer people, just more mixed roles.

 

[Romilly]

I do think, though, that trolley services will only be successful if they can be relied on. On the journeys I've made on East Coast in the last couple of months, a trolley has been the exception rather than the rule. The result is that regular travellers plan on the basis that there will be no trolley and, accordingly, trolley sales decline.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, indeed. They do seem to be considered optional. Optional = won't get used.