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Oldest electric buses in service UK

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Bornin1980s

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I am wondering what the lifespan of electric buses might be. What are the oldest all-electric buses still in service in the UK, excluding hybrids and repowered diesels?
 
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johncrossley

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I am wondering what the lifespan of electric buses might be.

Trolleybuses have a lifespan that considerably exceeds diesel buses. So it is reasonable to assume similar lifespan for a battery powered bus wiith periodic replacement of the batteries.
 

Goldfish62

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I am wondering what the lifespan of electric buses might be. What are the oldest all-electric buses still in service in the UK, excluding hybrids and repowered diesels?
The 50 or so BYD E200EVs at GoAhead London entered service in 2016 and are still going strong. They were initially on the erstwhile 507 and 521, replacing Citaros. They have since moved to the 360 and 444, and some have just recently entered service on the 108 replacing the same Citaros as they displaced on the 507 and 521! No reason why they shouldn't have a full 15+ year life in London.

Other only slightly younger London BYD E200s have recently started on fresh seven year contracts.
 

GusB

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Trolleybuses have a lifespan that considerably exceeds diesel buses. So it is reasonable to assume similar lifespan for a battery powered bus wiith periodic replacement of the batteries.
Where are these trolleybuses that you refer to? I'm not aware of any such systems that are currently in operation in the UK. ;)
 

johncrossley

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Where are these trolleybuses that you refer to? I'm not aware of any such systems that are currently in operation in the UK. ;)
I was answering the first part of the question, which is why I only quoted that part. The location shouldn't have that much impact on the lifespan of an electric bus so you can use evidence from outside the UK. The climate may make some difference. However, you would have thought the harsh winters experienced in places like Tallinn (where Soviet era trolleybuses lasted many decades) would be mean a shorter life than in the UK.
 

GusB

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I was answering the first part of the question, which is why I only quoted that part. The location shouldn't have that much impact on the lifespan of an electric bus so you can use evidence from outside the UK. The climate may make some difference. However, you would have thought the harsh winters experienced in places like Tallinn (where Soviet era trolleybuses lasted many decades) would be mean a shorter life than in the UK.
The thread title is "Oldest electric buses in service UK". :)

Considering that we haven't had trolleybuses operating in the UK for several decades now, your suggestion is completely irrelevant.
 

johncrossley

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Considering that we haven't had trolleybuses operating in the UK for several decades now, your suggestion is completely irrelevant.

The nearest trolleybus system to London is in Arnhem, about 200 miles away. If we are going to be parochial about this, I could argue that is a lot nearer to here than the north of Scotland :)

We also need to consider whether the lifespan of a hydrogen bus will be any different to a battery electric bus. We have earlier examples of those, the fuel cell buses used on London routes 25 and RV1 but there were too many peculiarities about that operation so I don't think we can get that much information from it.
 

Dwarfer1979

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The thread title is "Oldest electric buses in service UK". :)

Considering that we haven't had trolleybuses operating in the UK for several decades now, your suggestion is completely irrelevant.
Depends what you mean by "operating" since Sandtoft still run their preserved trolleybuses round their museum regularly though they don't go onto the public road if that is your definition.

Oldest electrics in regular normal service would have been one of the early Solos but most of the operators (such as Big Lemon & CT4N) who were running the early ones from 2012-2015 have lost or ended work over the last year so I'm not sure if they are still in service now.
 

Goldfish62

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With electric buses having now been in mainstream service for several years around the country I'm guessing what the OP was seeking to establish was the longevity compared to equivalent diesels. This is not an unreasonable question given the short lives many hybrids have had before conversion to diesel or simply being scrapped.

As others have said, battery electric buses can go on and on provided the batteries are healthy and changed as required. In fact, with significantly fewer moving parts and far less vibration they should be more durable than their diesel equivalents, with only chassis rot being the potential main common life-threatener for both types.

The big question is battery life, not when they're in front line service because one midlife change will have been costed in, but once withdrawn from 15-16 years of front line service. As things currently stand, the resale value of a 16 year old EV with degraded batteries is probably zero. However, if the batteries still have 5+ years life left in them then that makes potential resale a lot more viable. But it's going to be a few years yet before we see mainstream electric buses on the secondhand market, so it's still early days.
 
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N1

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The big question is battery life, not when they're in front line service because one midlife change will have been costed in, but once withdrawn from 15-16 years of front line service. As things currently stand, the resale value of a 16 year old EV with degraded batteries is probably zero. However, if the batteries still have 5+ years life left in them then that makes potential resale a lot more viable. But it's going to be a few years yet before we see mainstream electric buses on the secondhand market, so it's still early days.
A lot of battery electric buses ordered in the last few years have the batteries provided as 'battery-as-a-service' from the likes of Zenobe, they are effectively leased for a fixed period, typically 15-years. This includes any mid-life replacements to maintain a minimum capacity. Zenobe also build BESS (Battery Energy Storage Systems), and they generally say they will re-use replaced batteries in these type of installations. Although as above, actually lifespan of the various Lithium battery types on high discharge cycles is still being worked out. Degraded batteries that aren't suitable for use on vehicles will still have some value.
 

Goldfish62

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A lot of battery electric buses ordered in the last few years have the batteries provided as 'battery-as-a-service' from the likes of Zenobe, they are effectively leased for a fixed period, typically 15-years. This includes any mid-life replacements to maintain a minimum capacity. Zenobe also build BESS (Battery Energy Storage Systems), and they generally say they will re-use replaced batteries in these type of installations. Although as above, actually lifespan of the various Lithium battery types on high discharge cycles is still being worked out. Degraded batteries that aren't suitable for use on vehicles will still have some value.
Yes indeed. I left the battery managers out of it for simplicity. However, the question remains what happens when the buses are withdrawn because that's also when the battery manager relinquishes responsibility. It's all down to the life and health of the batteries.
 

Mikw

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If they get to 15 years then they'll be about the same as diesel buses typically get to.
 

VioletEclipse

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I believe there are hundreds of diesel buses which have shorter lives than others from the same batch due to mechanical issues, which could be less of a thing with battery electic buses.

Also if trolleybuses ever make a comeback (we can hope) then they could hopefully easily last double as long as equivalent diesels.
 

route101

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Not many I remember before 2020. First Glasgow have a few E200EVs from late 2019 or early 2020 which were branded for M3 service.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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While hybrid buses have been around since at least 2010 it seems the oldest pure electrics remaining may be the 12 Versas introduced in 2014 for York Park & Ride services. Interestingly these have had their drivetrains completely replaced more recently.

In terms of longevity it is too soon to say what is actually going to be achieved. The retirement of diesel buses varies quite a bit, Back in the day 12 years was a typical decision point on whether to refurbish or scrap. Deregulation distorted the picture as minibuses first saw some fleets of bigger buses retired early but rarely survived anything like as long themselves. These days it's not difficult to find 20 year old buses still in service. As battery technology continues to improve it's not clear how many early electric buses will be upgraded at some point or whether, after receiving a replacement power pack, they'll be retired after 12-15 years. More modern designs should last a fair bit longer than that.

Of course battery powered road vehicles have been around a long time in the form of milk floats. These often lasted 20 years or more without difficulty though their performance didn't need to be up to much as they rarely operated among much traffic. Mention has been made of trolleybuses upthread: to further that general point on the rails EMUs typically last 35-40 years with even longer lifespans not uncommon. Whereas DMUs tend to be life expired several years sooner and relatively few break the 40 year barrier. It seems reasonable to expect a similar pattern with electric buses compared to diesels.
 

GusB

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We have yet another case where someone starts a trivia thread and specifies what does and what doesn't count, but people completely ignore the conditions!

The OP says:
I am wondering what the lifespan of electric buses might be. What are the oldest all-electric buses still in service in the UK, excluding hybrids and repowered diesels?
"Excluding hybrids and repowered diesels".

The nearest trolleybus system to London is in Arnhem, about 200 miles away. If we are going to be parochial about this, I could argue that is a lot nearer to here than the north of Scotland :)

We also need to consider whether the lifespan of a hydrogen bus will be any different to a battery electric bus. We have earlier examples of those, the fuel cell buses used on London routes 25 and RV1 but there were too many peculiarities about that operation so I don't think we can get that much information from it.
You've still completely ignored the fact that the OP explicitly asks about electric buses still in service in the UK.

Depends what you mean by "operating" since Sandtoft still run their preserved trolleybuses round their museum regularly though they don't go onto the public road if that is your definition.

Oldest electrics in regular normal service would have been one of the early Solos but most of the operators (such as Big Lemon & CT4N) who were running the early ones from 2012-2015 have lost or ended work over the last year so I'm not sure if they are still in service now.
Please read the opening post! :D

Ultimately, a bus will only have a long life if it's well built and well maintained; it doesn't really matter whether it has a diesel or electric driveline.
 
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stadler

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Big Lemon still have five 2012 built YJ12 batch Optare buses. They have two Optare Solo SR EV (YJ12 GWV and YJ12 GWW) buses and three Optare Versa EV (YJ12 GWX and YJ12 GWY and YJ12 GWZ) buses. Although i believe only one of the five still works. The bus YJ12 GWZ is still in daily use. It is normally either on the Brighton City College contract or one of the four Legal & General contracts most days. It has been in use every weekday this week and last week. The other four all seem to have issues and are just rotting away at the back of the depot. So i would say YJ12 GWZ is probably the winner of the oldest electric bus still in use.
 

MEC

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I think some of the ex nottingham city council/ct4n optare solo electric buses from 2013/14 are still In service.and there are a decent amount of 2016 byd k9ur buses in service on the medilink however they are becoming Increasingly unreliable and will be not used in a few months
 

cnjb8

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I think some of the ex nottingham city council/ct4n optare solo electric buses from 2013/14 are still In service.and there are a decent amount of 2016 byd k9ur buses in service on the medilink however they are becoming Increasingly unreliable and will be not used in a few months
I believe the CT4N electric Optare’s have all been withdrawn and the vast majority scrapped. YJ62FZA and a SR were sold to Big Lemon, but are younger than the buses mentioned in post 20
 

VioletEclipse

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Might be an idea for a seperate thread, but in future battery electric buses could present challenges in preservation if anyone wants to save any in working order in future. I imagine that a lot of mainenance is software-related, which could easily get expensive if not obsolete.
 

Great_Western

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Given a lot of still relatively young hybrid electric vehicles have either been scrapped or converted to diesel, I do worry how feesilble it will be to do battery swaps on fully electric buses when the batteries have degraded to a point where it is absolutely needed. Are battery swaps something manufacturers of electric buses take in to account from new and make it easy/cost effective to do?

In addition to that, how long are batteries in new buses now expected to last? I type this whilst again sat on Newport Bus Z01 which despite being nearly 9 years old is doing another full day on city service.
 

Mikw

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Given a lot of still relatively young hybrid electric vehicles have either been scrapped or converted to diesel, I do worry how feesilble it will be to do battery swaps on fully electric buses when the batteries have degraded to a point where it is absolutely needed. Are battery swaps something manufacturers of electric buses take in to account from new and make it easy/cost effective to do?

In addition to that, how long are batteries in new buses now expected to last? I type this whilst again sat on Newport Bus Z01 which despite being nearly 9 years old is doing another full day on city service.
For what it's worth the longest battery warranty i've heard of is 14 years.
 

Taunton

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Remember being shown around the first one ever, in 1972. Does it still exist somewhere? The "Electrobus", it was fundamentally "Milk Float" technology of the era, and as ever with battery power "would be developed to complete all-day double decker operation within 5 years". Here:

 

Trainman40083

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I think some of the ex nottingham city council/ct4n optare solo electric buses from 2013/14 are still In service.and there are a decent amount of 2016 byd k9ur buses in service on the medilink however they are becoming Increasingly unreliable and will be not used in a few months
Given only one CT4N BYD shows on bus times, I was surprised to see so many at the yard at Queen's Drive... Soon be replaced by Skills Enviro 400MMCs
 

joieman

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I wonder if this article from 2017 may be of interest:
It looks as though this may finally be the year of the battery bus. With more than 50 having entered service in the closing months of 2016 and at least 30 others on order at the time, chancellor Philip Hammond’s autumn statement promise of £150million for electric and hydrogen buses will surely add further to their numbers.

But the claim that Metroline’s five double-deckers running on London route 98 are ‘a global first – a completely emissions free pure electric double decker’ (as the BYD press release put it) is stretching the truth somewhat — stretching it, in fact, by over a century. Indeed The Times reported the demonstration of an electric bus in Glasgow and London as long ago as 1893.

But for fleet operation, we turn the clock back to 1907, the year that the London Electrobus Company introduced the first of 20 open-top double-deckers on a route between Victoria and Liverpool Street. Recharging between journeys took place at premises near Liverpool Street, while depleted batteries could be swapped over rapidly for fresh ones at the Victoria garage.

Electrobus did not reach its potential – it intended to place 50 buses in service – not because of a failure of technology, but through financial fraud by some of the company’s directors. As a result, it went into liquidation in 1910.

However, eight buses were sold to the Brighton, Hove & Preston United Omnibus Company, which had purchased four others new. They continued in service until 1916, their end being attributed to the inability to obtain spare parts, though the depot at Montague Place survives as a listed building.

Its direct successor, the Brighton & Hove Bus and Coach Company, has been trying some of today’s electric bus demonstrators and is considering operating some of its own.

David Kaye’s 1974 book British Battery Electric Buses records American-built Edison single-deck battery buses ran briefly in Southend (one), South Shields (two) and West Bromwich (four). All were ordered in 1914, the war causing some delays in getting them into service, and all seem to have been withdrawn by 1919. More successfully, four Edisons ran in York in 1915-22, five entered service in Lancaster, and Derby purchased one in 1920.

All of the Edisons were run by municipalities, and most included some kind of recharging facility at a terminus. The short life was not necessarily a reflection of the vehicles’ technical abilities, as many internal combustion buses from the same era had similarly short lives.

Interest in battery buses waned in the light of improved reliability of motorbuses, plus the availability of the trolleybus – indeed, four of the Edison users later took these up. Between the wars, Kaye records that trolleybus manufacturer Ransomes, Sims & Jefferies produced a 40-seat bus that ended up being used for colliery transport.

Walker supplied a 25-seater to Liverpool Corporation, while Clayton — an established manufacturer of electric lorries — built one bus. In the late 1940s, Lancaster produced an open-top single-decker based on milk float technology that was demonstrated to Blackpool.

The 1970s oil crisis

It was to be a quarter-century later when oil price rises and shortages put battery buses back on the agenda.

The Department of Trade & Industry funded the purchase of two buses, to be demonstrated to operators around the country. They were Crompton Electricars, based on a Leyland 900FG small truck chassis, their Willowbrook bodies having nine seats and space for 17 standees.

The low capacity (diesel contemporaries could carry up to 30) was a result of the high weight of the batteries, the whole vehicle weighing 9,652kg. The first was delivered to Leeds City Transport in the same month — March 1972 — that the UK’s last trolleybuses finished in neighbouring Bradford. Here it was used on a city centre shopping service, where some of the route was along pedestrianised streets.

The little buses – just 6.8m long – were also demonstrated to operators in Edinburgh, Manchester and Norwich, but despite most of the below-floor area being stuffed with batteries, range was a paltry 35miles.

Range of the 1973-built 43-seat Chloride Silent Rider was slightly better, at 45miles. This was supplied to Selnec (later Greater Manchester) PTE and was based on a 10m Pennine-bodied Seddon RU. The theory was that it would be used only as a peak-hour extra, before requiring a 3hr 30min recharge, but at four times the cost of a double-deck diesel and weighing in at 13tonne, it was never going to be a commercial proposition.

The government of the day also encouraged the state-owned National Bus Company to join the fray. A 10.3m Leyland National was converted to electric propulsion, towing 7tonnes of batteries in a two-axle trailer. This meant that at 13.6m overall, it exceeded maximum vehicle lengths, and needed special permission to run on the highway. This was only granted for the restricted Runcorn Busway, where it saw but sporadic use, its range of 60 to 80miles after an 8hr recharge still too short for all-day use.

The 19-seat/15 standing bus was intended to run alongside diesel Seddons on the Manchester Centreline service, its lead acid batteries giving a range of 50 to 60miles that could cover an all-day duty, before overnight recharging.

But there is limited evidence of the circa 8tonne bus — 3.5tonne heavier than its diesel counterparts — in regular use, its electronic control gear contributing to its novelty, though service on the Doncaster Inner Circle is recorded. Lucas anticipated lighter sodium sulphur batteries would be available around 1980, by which time the bus was out of service, but is today preserved at the Manchester Museum of Transport.

One more battery bus appeared in the 1970s. Bournemouth — the last UK operator to buy new trolleybuses for service (in 1962) — took delivery of a Rootes-bodied Silent Karrier midibus based on a Dodge van chassis of similar dimensions to the Crompton Electricars; it had 18 seats and ran on a town centre shuttle. It lasted until 1987, when the replacement of its motor was said to be uneconomic.

Air quality concerns in Oxford

Today, air quality is cited frequently as a reason to use zero emission vehicles, but Oxford was possibly a pioneer of this reasoning in the early 1990s.

Four Optare MetroRiders were supplied to the Oxford Bus Company in late 1993 for use on a demonstration shuttle service that linked sensitive parts of the city centre with the railway station. Here there were recharging facilities so that the buses could be plugged in between journeys, though the main recharging was undertaken overnight in the operator’s depot.

Like earlier attempts, the batteries were so heavy that they reduced the passengercarrying capacity. In diesel form, the MetroRider could take 25 seated passengers plus standees, but these electric versions were limited to just 18 seats. To add to the disadvantages, the purchase cost was said to be twice that of an equivalent diesel.

The trial was financed by power company Southern Electric, which also part-maintained the buses. Former Oxford Bus managing director Philip Kirk recalls that operations were somewhat inefficient – an 18min journey followed by 12min of charging, but with a need to keep two diesel buses spare to cover for any failure in operation.

On retender in 1997, the service was won by Stagecoach-owned Thames Transit, but was withdrawn in spring 1998. The buses were returned to Southern Electric, but reappeared during 1999 in Jersey. Only three were used by Jersey Motor Transport — for less than a year on a St Helier town service — while the fourth passed to Pioneer Coaches where it was converted to diesel.

One had not finished with island life, but this time it was off the west coast of Scotland.

L802 HJO was bought by Greenpeace, to become a 16-seat community bus on Islay. It was subject to a £60,000 rebuild, including replacement of the direct current drive with an ac system supplied by a firm from Solihull. Full recharge was said to take 10hr, with the power for this being generated by wave energy. Electric running costs were around one-third of the diesel equivalent.

It was launched in 2002, and The Times reported that its range was limited to 9miles and the wave energy source was unreliable. The bus was understood to be out of use by 2007.

Another found its way to mainland Scotland. L801 HJO was purchased by Moray Council, where a European Union grant enabled a £20,000 refurbishment. At the end of its life, it was secured for preservation at the Oxford Bus Museum.

The Italian job

EU funding was responsible for two trials with the Italian-built Tecnobus Gulliver battery bus. Two R-registered examples were run by First as part of Centaur (Clean and Efficient New Transport Approach for Urban Rationalisation) on a free park-&-ride service in Bristol from 1998, but had gone by 2002.

The larger scheme involved PTE Merseytravel, which was seeking environmentally-friendly buses to support the Hamilton Quarter regeneration project in Birkenhead. It considered four vehicle types before ordering six of these left-hand drive vehicles. They required an extra seat to give a capacity of nine, which would otherwise disqualify them from being of PSV status in the UK.

Although standing passengers could be accommodated within the legal weight limits (the bus was around 4tonne), Construction & Use regulations forbade this on any bus with fewer than 13 seats. These too were run by First.

A report by the Energy Savings Trust gives much detail on the trial, which was part of the EU’s Jupiter 2 programme (Joint Urban Project In Transport Energy Reduction). The total capital cost of the six buses and associated battery and charging equipment was £539,032.

First, which ran them between 1999 and 2006, reported 0.33% lost mileage caused by breakdown during their first year, only one third being attributed to battery problems. But then there were six to cover four duties.

Their range was up to 100km (62miles), though none were scheduled for more than 80km (50miles). Overnight charging needed 7 to 8hr, but like the London Electrobuses 90 years earlier, batteries could be exchanged in less than 5min. Twelve sets were obtained for the six buses.

Maintenance was initially by Tecnobus.

First took over in 2000, reputedly without much help for the technologically different buses.

Upon withdrawal, two passed to the University of Sunderland, where they were converted to a fuel-cell, battery and capacitor combination. They never ran on the road in this format, and have since been disposed of, although the fuel-cells were retained for use in other vehicles.

Remarkably, a local newspaper reported three of the Gullivers had been purchased by a Dundee taxi company in 2014, one being a former Bristol example. The other was noted as a mobile home in Somerset in 2011.

Subsequently, six three-axle models with a capacity of 11 were used on Merseytravel routes in St Helens from 2002. Operated by Selwyns of Runcorn, the larger model was named the Pantheon.

Like the Gullivers, no fares were charged, reflecting the layout of the bus. With a door in the centre, driver and passengers were not sufficiently close together to allow conventional fare collection. The routes were withdrawn in February 2014 and all are believed to have passed to local scrapyards during 2015.

Nonetheless, Tecnobus’s website still proudly lists the UK’s eight Gullivers and six Pantheons among the 500-plus microbuses that it has sold in eight different countries.

Strathclyde’s Omnis

In 1998, Strathclyde PTE bought three battery-powered FTL Omnis, but as far as is known, they never entered passenger service.

They were intended for use on the interstation shuttle connecting Central and Queen Street railway termini in Glasgow, with recharging facilities provided within Buchanan Bus Station.

The plague of excessive weight meant that the buses required three axles, and still could not carry standees. But the real killer was the gradient between Queen Street and Buchanan, which rapidly drained power and meant extended recharging was needed.

Tenders for their operation added a 50% premium over diesel buses. The PTE took the latter option, and sought alternative work for the Omnis, but that work never materialised.

A brief flowering was TDI’s Minitram, intended ultimately to work under electronic guidance. Prototype VO52 AFA ran at the Spencer family seat of Althorp House in Northamptonshire during 2002, in Stratfordupon- Avon during 2003 and for six weeks in 2005 with First in Bradford. With a floor line of about 600mm, the double-ended vehicle required platforms for boarding, emphasising its tram-like qualities.

21st century technology

For once, battery technology really has turned a corner. The availability of lithium ion (LiOn) batteries — the same technology that powers most mobile phones — offers a lot more power in a smaller space. Optare uses LiOn batteries to power an electric motor in all of its models, which requires no more space than a diesel equivalent.

Optare’s first electric bus was launched in April 2009 and was rebuilt from the ill-fated Solo+ that appeared at the Euro Bus Expo show in 2008.

Optare claimed that the extra capital cost would be repaid within eight years through lower running costs. We do not yet know if that is true. Demonstrator YJ09 EZR was later re-registered T5 EEV, for its work as a Heathrow Airport Staff Shuttle bus for Hallmark/Rotala, but was withdrawn in July 2015. We understand that it will return to service this year, converted back to a conventional diesel.

Such conversions are not unknown to Rotala, whose Diamond fleet in the West Midlands has acquired three other Solos that began life as electrics and have been rebuilt as diesels. These were the Solo EVs that Durham County Council bought in 2010 for a service to Durham Cathedral. Operated initially by Veolia, the contract was later run by Stanley Travel, but the battery buses were subsequently replaced by diesel-powered Solo SRs.

Where to find battery buses in 2017

The Nottingham vehicles are all owned by the city council, while First Manchester’s Versas on Metroshuttle work belong to Transport for Greater Manchester.
By contrast, The Big Lemon in Brighton has converted a pair of diesel Solos to electric drive (Buses July).

In total, Optare has supplied around 90 battery electric single-deckers, half of them to Nottingham City Council, and all of them operate on the plug-in recharge method.

In contrast, BYD uses physically larger iron phosphate batteries. The prototypes that were run on routes 507 and 521 with Go-Ahead in London — and expected to move to Uno in Hertfordshire — have highly intrusive battery stacks above the front wheels.

BYD’s double-deckers have limited seating downstairs for the same reason – the batteries are much bigger than the diesel technology that they replace. But they do have a greater range – 190miles per charge, against Optare buses that started at about 60miles and can now reach 100.

The alternative is opportunity charging between journeys, the method used by the Wright StreetLites in Milton Keynes. Rather than being plugged in, a few minutes of wireless inductive charging takes place by lowering a plate on the bus containing secondary coils over one in the street covering primary coils.

This way the batteries on the 9,720kg bus (one set highly visible on the roof) can keep going through the day, followed by overnight plug-in charging at the depot.

Passenger experience

Whatever shortcomings there may be on battery space, electric buses give a far superior ride than their diesel cousins.

Acceleration and deceleration is much smoother, there is no vibration, and the bus is completely silent when stationary. As yet, heating is a problem, as it drains the current too fast. For this reason, most of Britain’s battery buses have diesel-fired heating.
 
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