Oldest coaches running in preservation?

[Stiubhart]

Hi everybody,

As the title says, I'm curious to know what railway has the oldest coaches in preservation at the moment, preferably those which are in use by the railway and not a static exhibit. I'm aware that Bo'ness has some Caledonian coaches and Isle of Wight has some Southern, but wondered if there might be other pre-grouping stock in use somewhere else, and if so, which is the oldest?

Thank you.

-S

 

[Trainlog]

Hi everybody,

As the title says, I'm curious to know what railway has the oldest coaches in preservation at the moment, preferably those which are in use by the railway and not a static exhibit. I'm aware that Bo'ness has some Caledonian coaches and Isle of Wight has some Southern, but wondered if there might be other pre-grouping stock in use somewhere else, and if so, which is the oldest?

Thank you.

-S

Firstly, welcome to RailUKforums!

Secondly, there are some good ones down in the Southeast of England - The Bluebell has many examples such as the London Chatham and Dover railway, South Eastern and Chatham railway along with their famous Metropolitan coaches rake. Its Neighbour, the KESR has a fair few pre grouping coaches such as the SECR ones to name one example.

 

[kje7812]

Keighley run a vintage train in the summer with several Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway coaches plus the NER inspection saloon and a Metropolitan compartment coach. One of the L&YR used was originally built in 1880.

 

[eldomtom2]

The Talyllyn's 1866 coaches are still in regular use, aren't they?

 

[Alanko]

I've not seen anything other than Mk1s in use on the Bo'ness railway for quite a while. Two Gresley teaks were brought out when Tornado visited a couple of years ago, but I've never seen the Caledonian coaches in service, and a lot of that stuff is out the public eye.

The Strathspey railway has some interesting heritage coaching that is also rarely seen.

 

[30907]

It depends what you mean!

There are some C19th coach bodies that have been brought back from non-railway use but are on more modern underframes - do they count?

If not, the Talyllyn coaches already mentioned, and some Festiniog examples, are almost certainly the oldest (unless you know different, as the man on TV said....).

On standard gauge and in fairly regular use I would say the IWR bogie coaches are probably the oldest, but their history is complex and most of them were altered on transfer to the IoW.
The KWVR/VCT "Chatham" brake is restored to original condition and is 100-odd years old, but used less regularly.
The SVR has 1920's Collett stock which was in use till recently.

I don't think that's an exhaustive list....

 

[DarloRich]

Standard gauge i think i would go woth the bluebelle or perhaps the kwvr/vct vehicles

 

[Tim M]

If not, the Talyllyn coaches already mentioned, and some Festiniog examples, are almost certainly the oldest (unless you know different, as the man on TV said....).

Ffestiniog Railway No. 16 from 1872 is probably the oldest carriage (coaches have rubber tyres) in regular service in the U.K., being used daily on the Woodland Wanderer service to Tan-y-Bwlch. Sister carriage No. 15 was repainted before lockdown in full original plum and white livery with gold leaf lining and is only used for special events such as Bygones Weekend, this year between 6th to 8th October.

Note 15 and 16 were the first bogie carriages in the British Isles.

Carriage 16 - Festipedia

www.festipedia.org.uk

The 4 wheeled ‘Bug-boxes date from 1865, again they only come out for special events.

Bug Boxes - Festipedia

www.festipedia.org.uk

 

[DelW]

The Isle of Wight steam line has two rakes, one is bogie coaches of Southern origin, the other is four-wheelers of pre-grouping origins that mostly moved to the island in Southern days.
However as 30907 points out, many of the four-wheelers spent time as beach huts, holiday chalets and the like, so they've been mounted on much more recent chassis (probably modified from freight wagons).

 

[zwk500]

According to the Bluebell's Stock List, https://www.bluebell-railway.com/brps/carriage-stock-list/, their oldest currently operational carriage is a First-Class carriage from the LBSC of 1880, but it is noted to have been rebuilt and reclassified since that date.
There are no other pre-1900 LBSCR coaches operational, the oldest carriage they have is 1856 but it's a dismantled body only. There are 3 pre-1900 LCDR carriages operational, along with the Chesham set of 1897 vintage.

 

[30907]

(coaches have rubber tyres)

As do cars - but I have just reserved a seat in coach M on LNER and there are plenty of 4 (etc) car stop signs on NR - and rubber tyres are fairly unusual on rail

Happy to note that the FR call them "carriages" though. And thanks for confirming my guess about the ages.

 

[Mike Machin]

The Isle of Wight steam line has two rakes, one is bogie coaches of Southern origin, the other is four-wheelers of pre-grouping origins that mostly moved to the island in Southern days.
However as 30907 points out, many of the four-wheelers spent time as beach huts, holiday chalets and the like, so they've been mounted on much more recent chassis (probably modified from freight wagons).

In fact, all but one of the bogie coaches are pre-grouping too. The Isle of Wight’s newest coach dates from Southern days, having been built in 1924 so is 99 years old. The four wheelers are all Victorian, with the oldest dating from 1864, just 35 years after Rocket won the Rainhill Trials!

The four-wheelers have all been extensively renovated or rebuilt after spending decades being used as summer house, beach huts and sheds and are indeed running on modified 4-wheel chassis, mainly from Southern PMVs.

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

The Isle of Wight steam line has two rakes, one is bogie coaches of Southern origin, the other is four-wheelers of pre-grouping origins that mostly moved to the island in Southern days.
However as 30907 points out, many of the four-wheelers spent time as beach huts, holiday chalets and the like, so they've been mounted on much more recent chassis (probably modified from freight wagons).

Actually, one of the four wheelers ("Oldbury" 10 of 1864) runs on a custom built wooden underframe. A second one is under restoration at present. Both were withdrawn before the SR was formed!

 

[xotGD]

There's a bit of a Ship of Theseus vibe to some of this ancient coaching stock. How much, if any, of these vehicles actually date from 18xx?

Don't get me wrong though, I think it is a real treat to travel on the Vintage Trains set at the KWVR. Beautifully restored.

 

[Mike Machin]

Actually, one of the four wheelers ("Oldbury" 10 of 1864) runs on a custom built wooden underframe. A second one is under restoration at present. Both were withdrawn before the SR was formed!

Thanks, yes I'd forgotten about the Oldburys!

 

[2392]

The Tanfield Railway run many former 4-6 wheelers. That had bee turned into "garden sheds, chicken coops" and assorted other grounded bodies. Which in turn have been re-wheeled using PMV [in the main] underframes, being an "industrial" outfit many have been fitted out with "freelance", rather than original style interiors.

 

[jumble]

Ffestiniog Railway No. 16 from 1872 is probably the oldest carriage (coaches have rubber tyres) in regular service in the U.K., being used daily on the Woodland Wanderer service to Tan-y-Bwlch. Sister carriage No. 15 was repainted before lockdown in full original plum and white livery with gold leaf lining and is only used for special events such as Bygones Weekend, this year between 6th to 8th October.

N

Best tell the TOCs as they are not aware that coaches is the wrong terminology

Make a seat reservation for our trains | LNER

If you're traveling with LNER make sure you have a seat reservation with your ticket for a comfortable journey. Make one here if your ticket or pass doesn't already have one.

www.lner.co.uk

Unreserved seating​

There is limited unreserved seating in coach C (Standard) and coaches E or M

 

[zwk500]

There's a bit of a Ship of Theseus vibe to some of this ancient coaching stock. How much, if any, of these vehicles actually date from 18xx?

Don't get me wrong though, I think it is a real treat to travel on the Vintage Trains set at the KWVR. Beautifully restored.

Tbf that's not unauthentic though, given that railways regularly rebuilt their carriages and locos.

 

[mjc]

Foxfield has a rake of three local ‘Knotty’ coaches dating back to 1870s:

Knotty Heritage Train Days - Foxfield Railway

foxfieldrailway.co.uk

Enjoy a unique heritage train ride through the Staffordshire countyside.​

The Knotty Heritage Train as something very special.

It is one of the oldest standard gauge trains in regular passenger service anywhere in the world. The train comprises three original North Staffordshire Railway carriages dating from the 1870s just as they would have run in Victorian times on the local transport network. The train is hauled by a period steam locomotive Beyer 0-4-0ST “Bertie Peacock” dating from 1878. NSR Brake 3rd no23 is equipped to carry two wheelchair users and their companions

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

One shouldn't get too "curatorial" about the amount of "original" material is to be found in any restored carriage. Their whole existence has involved repair, replacement and modification from the moment of manufacture.

 

[randyrippley]

Among the oldest will be the Isle of Man Steam Railways remaining "Small F" coaches
Oldest survivor dates from 1881, though has been rebuilt

 

[Krokodil]

As do cars - but I have just reserved a seat in coach M on LNER and there are plenty of 4 (etc) car stop signs on NR - and rubber tyres are fairly unusual on rail

Happy to note that the FR call them "carriages" though. And thanks for confirming my guess about the ages.

Well "car" has long been an abbreviation of "carriage". The modern motor car is a descendant of the "horseless carriage".

The modern railway carriage likewise is a descendant of stagecoaches and mail coaches.

 

[Morayshire]

I've not seen anything other than Mk1s in use on the Bo'ness railway for quite a while. Two Gresley teaks were brought out when Tornado visited a couple of years ago, but I've never seen the Caledonian coaches in service, and a lot of that stuff is out the public eye.

Both Caley coaches were in use on the 3rd Nov 2019 and were hauled by the Caley Tank as I made a visit to Bo'ness that day purely because of that combination of stock and loco. From what I remember from the day, both coaches used were built c 1920s.

 

[Rescars]

Well "car" has long been an abbreviation of "carriage". The modern motor car is a descendant of the "horseless carriage".

The modern railway carriage likewise is a descendant of stagecoaches and mail coaches.

And if coaches always have rubber tyres, the GWR must have "slipped" up somewhere (or at least slipped something else) along the line! (Sorry!)

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

Actually rode in Oldbury 10 yesterday. The ride is surprisingly good, presumably aided by the exceptionally long springs but second class is cramped, particularly in contrast with the evidently sumptuous first class saloon.
Previous comments made concerning how much original material has been reused can be replied to approximately as follows. The underframe is new or has recycled components. The body frame is approximately 70 percent reused but all of the seating, wood panelling and window glass is replacement.
For those interested the late Richard Vernon, well known as a film and television actor, donated the superstructure to the IOWSR.

 

[theageofthetra]

Vols Electric Railway or Manx Electric must have some pretty old stock.

 

[Western 52]

Vols Electric Railway or Manx Electric must have some pretty old stock.

1893 for the MER.