Older Persons Bus Pass Holders Should Get Free Rail Travel

[aron2smith]

and, under the about to be implemented structure , will have a maximum fare of €5.50 for seniors at any time, €3.30 off peak and weekends, for an annual subsription of €32.
Look forward to that in L&SE.

As someone who wants the rail part of the Freedom Pass available for all Bus Pass holders in the Home Counties, I'd happily accept this as an alternative.

 

[Haywain]

and, under the about to be implemented structure , will have a maximum fare of €5.50 for seniors at any time, €3.30 off peak and weekends, for an annual subsription of €32.
Look forward to that in L&SE.

How is the maximum fare implemented? Is it per day or per journey?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Oct 2025 ==

As someone who wants the rail part of the Freedom Pass available for all Bus Pass holders in the Home Counties, I'd happily accept this as an alternative.

It's good to have dreams but that's all they are going to be.

 

[aron2smith]

It's good to have dreams but that's all they are going to be.

If other countries can do it, so can we.

 

[NER1621]

If other countries can do it, so can we.

Well, when the rest of the country gets the travel concessions offered to the over-indulged denizens of London and the south east, then perhaps there might be scope for some more changes.

 

[aron2smith]

Well, when the rest of the country gets the travel concessions offered to the over-indulged denizens of London and the south east, then perhaps there might be scope for some more changes.

I don't feel indulged here at all, 1 bus an hour after 7:30pm, potholes and dimly lit streets. The South East is not a utopia. And I don't know why it has to be said constantly but we can do both! Liverpool offers rail concessions just like London, no one bashes them all the time. The north may have less infrastructure but in my experience, what exists works better than down here. Less traffic helps.

 

[Haywain]

Well, when the rest of the country gets the travel concessions offered to the over-indulged denizens of London and the south east,

London, maybe, but what are these special benefits given to those in the rest of the south east?

 

[HSTEd]

Given subsidies are already running a billion pounds a month, where will the cash for this giveaway come from?

Old people already get a giant chunk of their ticket prices simply by virtue of being old (they get a Railcard the fee of which is essentially nominal compared to modern fares).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Oct 2025 ==

I don't feel indulged here at all, 1 bus an hour after 7:30pm, potholes and dimly lit streets. The South East is not a utopia. And I don't know why it has to be said constantly but we can do both! Liverpool offers rail concessions just like London, no one bashes them all the time. The north may have less infrastructure but in my experience, what exists works better than down here. Less traffic helps.

A bus at all after 5pm is a utopia for much of the country!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Oct 2025 ==

London, maybe, but what are these special benefits given to those in the rest of the south east?

The NSE Railcard that gives them a giant fare discount on the journeys they tend to actually make.

 

[Haywain]

The NSE Railcard that gives them a giant fare discount on the journeys they tend to actually make.

That helps to balance the fact that fares are higher than elsewhere in the country.

 

[PeterC]

Well, when the rest of the country gets the travel concessions offered to the over-indulged denizens of London and the south east, then perhaps there might be scope for some more changes.

Nothing stopping your local council providing the same level of concessions. The council tax rise would top the threshold for a referendum but I am sure that your neighbours would see the value in giving us boomers free train tickets.

 

[VItraveller]

They do here in the West Midlands.

 

[Agent_Squash]

The taxpayer already subsidises the lives of rich pensioners far too much. If anything, a targeted youth discount (16-25 50% discount with the railcard?) would be much more effective for a fairer society.

 

[Magdalia]

If other countries can do it, so can we.

A lesson that you continually fail to learn from this forum is that other countries doing things means that the UK can too. Listen to any discussion about the budget next month and you will know that the UK public finances are in a bad place, worse than most other comparable countries (though not France).

Given subsidies are already running a billion pounds a month, where will the cash for this giveaway come from?

This is why it won't happen. There is no money for things like this. Other countries may be able to afford it but the UK cannot.

The NSE Railcard that gives them a giant fare discount on the journeys they tend to actually make.

Next year will be 40 years since the launch of Network SouthEast. At the time the NSE railcard was a brilliant way of raising revenue making use of spare capacity. It was nothing like what is being proposed here. Giving free travel doesn't raise any revenue!

The taxpayer already subsidises the lives of rich pensioners far too much.

Another example of this is winter fuel allowance. Look at what happened when the government tried to withdraw it from rich pensioners.

There is a ratchet effect with idiotic schemes of this kind in that once they are started they become an open ended financial burden that is very difficult to stop.

 

[Snow1964]

The taxpayer already subsidises the lives of rich pensioners far too much.

The Government statistics split pensioners into older (75 and over) and younger (under 75) and they show younger pensioners have average weekly income of £455, for older pensioners it is £372

Full state pension (for those retired since 2016) is £230 a week. The basic is lower for pre 2016, but they had state second pension, SERPs and various other optional add ons.

What this shows is on average pensioners are not poor (admittedly some that never saved enough are hard up). But that isn't a reason to tax the current working generation to subsidise all pensioners even more.

In recent years pensioners get double the state income, adding on private/company pensions (or other income) giving average £455 per week.
So should they be subsidised with free rail travel when a person on minimum wage (£12.21 per hour) doing a normal 37-38 hour week also gets about £455 per week.

Pensioners' Incomes: financial years ending 1995 to 2024

www.gov.uk

 

[I'm here now]

The taxpayer already subsidises the lives of rich pensioners far too much. If anything, a targeted youth discount (16-25 50% discount with the railcard?) would be much more effective for a fairer society.

Quite right

 

[Howardh]

If old folks like me don't have free or discounted travel, then journeys would reduce and hit the economy - I for one would reduce day trips and spending, and also a lot of very elderly can't drive so public transport or taxis is all that's available.

However I do think a contribution towards those passes should be made, I'd be happy to pay £20 or so for my bus pass, and more than £30 for Railcard if I could get a bigger discount.

 

[Magdalia]

If old folks like me don't have free or discounted travel, then journeys would reduce and hit the economy - I for one would reduce day trips and spending, and also a lot of very elderly can't drive so public transport or taxis is all that's available.

The impact of this is often exaggerated. Most people don't reduce their spending, they just do the same spending at places nearer to home.

 

[mrcheek]

I suspect those on here calling for free travel for any one group of people are then the first to complain when services are overcrowded.....

How about this for fairness: everybody pays the same fares

 

[geoffk]

There is a case for a limited extension of the English national bus pass to railways, in cases where local geography makes bus links difficult or very indirect. Bus pass holders' options are limited in certain areas where there is a poor or very indirect bus service for reasons of local geography but a reasonably good rail service. One of these is the Tamar Valley line in Devon/Cornwall and another the Esk Valley in North Yorkshire, both lines surviving because of the difficulty of replacing them with buses. Also there's the Norwich - Lowestoft line where the only crossing of the River Yare at Reedham is by rail or else a chain ferry carrying three cars.

In each case it would be reasonable for a concession to be available for the rail journey. Some work has been done on this in the past and it would be for the relevant local authority to fund the rail concession. In the current financial climate a more general extension of the ENCTS to specific rail lines seems unlikely.

 

[Topological]

There is a case for a limited extension of the English national bus pass to railways, in cases where local geography makes bus links difficult or very indirect. Bus pass holders' options are limited in certain areas where there is a poor or very indirect bus service for reasons of local geography but a reasonably good rail service. One of these is the Tamar Valley line in Devon/Cornwall and another the Esk Valley in North Yorkshire, both lines surviving because of the difficulty of replacing them with buses. Also there's the Norwich - Lowestoft line where the only crossing of the River Yare at Reedham is by rail or else a chain ferry carrying three cars.

In each case it would be reasonable for a concession to be available for the rail journey. Some work has been done on this in the past and it would be for the relevant local authority to fund the rail concession. In the current financial climate a more general extension of the ENCTS to specific rail lines seems unlikely.

This appears more reasonable.

My understanding of the rationale for bus passes is that it enables the elderly to have access to their local communities, to the shops, to health services and to give them an ability to get out and socialise. The aim is achieved by buses for most. I can see it as being absolutely sensible to offer rail where there is no bus.

However, extending the discount to rail in most cases would actually be a change in purpose. Either the rail route offers a mirror to a bus, but a lot quicker, in which case you are going to see modal shift and potential negatives for those on the bus route when the bus companies reduce service post shift. Or the rail route adds a newer set of destinations and then leads to older people travelling out of the area. Longer distance travel could be highly detrimental to some towns.

My objection is not to including any form of transport, but rather to changing the focus of the policy from supporting local communities to enabling longer-distance travel.

 

[The Pelican]

It seems to me that the fraction of the elderly population the goverment particularly needs to help are those who become lonely or isolated, especially with the death of a spouse. The government should offer a free two day domestic holiday each year for those in this category who are able to travel, and offer the holidays in similar parts of the country. Train travel could be provided as part of this.

 

[NCT]

The taxpayer already subsidises the lives of rich pensioners far too much.

Quite.

 

[stevieinselby]

There is a case for a limited extension of the English national bus pass to railways, in cases where local geography makes bus links difficult or very indirect. Bus pass holders' options are limited in certain areas where there is a poor or very indirect bus service for reasons of local geography but a reasonably good rail service. One of these is the Tamar Valley line in Devon/Cornwall and another the Esk Valley in North Yorkshire, both lines surviving because of the difficulty of replacing them with buses. Also there's the Norwich - Lowestoft line where the only crossing of the River Yare at Reedham is by rail or else a chain ferry carrying three cars.

In each case it would be reasonable for a concession to be available for the rail journey. Some work has been done on this in the past and it would be for the relevant local authority to fund the rail concession. In the current financial climate a more general extension of the ENCTS to specific rail lines seems unlikely.

That certainly seems like a fair option – in specific locations where there isn't an adequate bus service, allowing ENCTS users (or the Scottish and Welsh equivalents) to use local trains could provide residents and visitors with access to transport more cost-effectively than subsidising a parallel bus service – but where there is an adequate bus service then I don't see the justification for extending free concessionary travel to rail. Some other possible routes where this could apply are the Settle to Carlisle line (north of Settle only), and the Cumbrian Coast line between Whitehaven and Barrow.

 

[Howardh]

It seems to me that the fraction of the elderly population the goverment particularly needs to help are those who become lonely or isolated, especially with the death of a spouse. The government should offer a free two day domestic holiday each year for those in this category who are able to travel, and offer the holidays in similar parts of the country. Train travel could be provided as part of this.

The Spanish government did that after covid - would have been longer (a week) and probably subsidised rather than free, but I know that the hotels were very busy with the elderly Spanish (I was there) and they got taken on day trips by coach.

Maybe there's something in that, keep the elderly (ie me) fit and healthy both in body and mind, and it can save our health services later on? But something like that would never happen here, too much cost up-front!

 

[snail]

If old folks like me don't have free or discounted travel, then journeys would reduce and hit the economy - I for one would reduce day trips and spending, and also a lot of very elderly can't drive so public transport or taxis is all that's available.

However I do think a contribution towards those passes should be made, I'd be happy to pay £20 or so for my bus pass, and more than £30 for Railcard if I could get a bigger discount.

There's quite a difference between a local bus journey and a national long distance train journey both in terms of cost and time. Though it's possible for someone to travel the length of the country for free on a bus pass it's much less likely than using the train. I think a subsidised/discounted fare by rail in return for a £30 railcard is a reasonable compromise.

 

[Falcon1200]

The taxpayer already subsidises the lives of rich pensioners far too much.

Which rather ignores the fact that today's pensioners spent around 40 years as taxpayers subsidising others! Not to mention that pensioners often pay tax as well.

 

[Wolfie]

Well, when the rest of the country gets the travel concessions offered to the over-indulged denizens of London and the south east, then perhaps there might be scope for some more changes.

London pays for the bulk of its own transport requirements. Perhaps the North needs to put its begging bowl away and start doing the same.

When the over-taxed citizens of London and the South East stop having to pay for economic basket-cases up North perhaps there maybe scope for some changes.


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Oct 2025 ==

If old folks like me don't have free or discounted travel, then journeys would reduce and hit the economy - I for one would reduce day trips and spending, and also a lot of very elderly can't drive so public transport or taxis is all that's available.

However I do think a contribution towards those passes should be made, I'd be happy to pay £20 or so for my bus pass, and more than £30 for Railcard if I could get a bigger discount.

The Over 60 Oystercard in London costs an initial £35 plus £18 per year revalidation fee.

 

[Yorkshire09876]

London pays for the bulk of its own transport requirements. Perhaps the North needs to put its begging bowl away and start doing the same.

When the over-taxed citizens of London and the South East stop having to pay for economic basket-cases up North perhaps there maybe scope for some changes.

What taxes do residents of the SE pay which those in other areas don't?

As regards London paying for things, it needs to be take into account that many large companies have their head office in London so the income is recorded as having been generated in London, when in fact it's been generated all over the country.

In terms of public transport spend, London gets vastly more per person than the rest of the country.

 

[stevieinselby]

Which rather ignores the fact that today's pensioners spent around 40 years as taxpayers subsidising others! Not to mention that pensioners often pay tax as well.

As a generation, today's pensioners will have received much more in terms of direct and indirect state benefits and spending relative to what they have paid in than any other generation before or after them.
That isn't to say that there aren't a significant number of individuals who are living on or below the breadline, but overall that age group has had the absolute best financial deal by a very big margin.

 

[Wolfie]

As a generation, today's pensioners will have received much more in terms of direct and indirect state benefits and spending relative to what they have paid in than any other generation before or after them.
That isn't to say that there aren't a significant number of individuals who are living on or below the breadline, but overall that age group has had the absolute best financial deal by a very big margin.

The problem dates back to the very first state pensioners in 1909. None of those pensioners had actually paid in one penny piece directly towards their pensions and the cost was bourne out of general taxation. That general principle, even after the introduction of national insurance, continues to this day. The problems started with increasing life expectancy and demographic changes leading to more pensioners and less workers.

 

[Lloyds siding]

What taxes do residents of the SE pay which those in other areas don't?

As regards London paying for things, it needs to be take into account that many large companies have their head office in London so the income is recorded as having been generated in London, when in fact it's been generated all over the country.

In terms of public transport spend, London gets vastly more per person than the rest of the country.

This is a big change in my lifetime. Many of our local firms used to have their HQs in their regions, whereas now by far the majority of companies have their HQ in London...even if most of their factories and staff are situated outside the home counties. They may be paying corporation tax and PAYE in London, but much of it was earned outside London. This skews the taxation picture making London appear much more 'productive' than it really is.