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Older Person's Bus Pass (England)

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phil1960

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Not too long before I get one of these and trying to hunt down to see if there is any formal list of bus operators and / or specific routes the pass is excluded on. One friend of mine (whose made over 1,000 journeys with his) says he's had problems in the West Midlands and Greater Manchester. I knew about the pass not being valid on trams, but he's been refused access on local buses (presumably off peak) too.

Any pointers to some sort of publication would be helpful.

Thanks.
Phil
 
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jfollows

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Google search for ENCTS led me to https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN01499/SN01499.pdf, for example.
Eligible bus services are defined by the Travel concessions (eligible services) order 2002 as amended by the Travel concessions (eligible services) (amendment) order 2009. This defines eligible services as ‘local services’, which are buses carrying passengers at separate fares locally, other than on private trips. The definition was originally wider, but several types of services were removed by the 2009 order, following consultation, see: DfT, Consultation on the definition of eligible services for the statutory bus concession in England, October 2008; and DfT, Government response to consultation on clarifying the definition of which services are eligible for the statutory bus concession in England, March 2009
The original documents includes links to the documents it refers to.
 

Lewisham2221

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Not too long before I get one of these and trying to hunt down to see if there is any formal list of bus operators and / or specific routes the pass is excluded on. One friend of mine (whose made over 1,000 journeys with his) says he's had problems in the West Midlands and Greater Manchester. I knew about the pass not being valid on trams, but he's been refused access on local buses (presumably off peak) too.

Any pointers to some sort of publication would be helpful.

Thanks.
Phil
It's not hugely uncommon for "out of area" passes to erroneously scan as not valid, or not recognised etc. I don't know the full technical details, but even though the cards are supposed to be issued to a common ITSO standard, there can be discrepancies between the way that cards are issued by different local authorities and the way that operators ticket machines are programmed to accept cards - remember that different local authority areas offer varying different enhancements to the base scheme. Unfortunately, it's also not uncommon for some drivers to adopt a hard-line "computer says no" attitude, when they should actually just manually check and accept the pass. I suspect most of your friends issues will fall under this umbrella; I see your location is North London - when I was driving buses, London issued Freedom passes were notorious for producing invalid scans in my area.
 

phil1960

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It's not hugely uncommon for "out of area" passes to erroneously scan as not valid, or not recognised etc. I don't know the full technical details, but even though the cards are supposed to be issued to a common ITSO standard, there can be discrepancies between the way that cards are issued by different local authorities and the way that operators ticket machines are programmed to accept cards - remember that different local authority areas offer varying different enhancements to the base scheme. Unfortunately, it's also not uncommon for some drivers to adopt a hard-line "computer says no" attitude, when they should actually just manually check and accept the pass. I suspect most of your friends issues will fall under this umbrella; I see your location is North London - when I was driving buses, London issued Freedom passes were notorious for producing invalid scans in my area.
I travel occasionally on London Buses with friends with bus passes issued by other County Councils and yes they can't be read by the Oyster readers. But never known any being told to tap in and pay. Worrying that drivers (outside of London) don't always accept them. I can see a lot of having to pay for a fare, retaining the paper ticket and then claiming it back from the operator.
 

richard13

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The ENCTS bus pass is valid on all registered local bus services in England, with exceptions as defined by the relevant local authority of the route (or boarding point). Hence there is no overall list, but each LA will have one. They are valid between 9:30 and 23:00 Mon-Fri and all weekend. They are ITSO cards and should work on most ticket machines that take cards, but in practice many combinations of issuer and bus operator don't work reliably and they never scan in London. Local cards work on the local buses!

Local authorities may exclude routes from the scheme for various reasons, including tourist or special purpose routes, historic vehicle routes, primarily bookable coach routes, where the fare includes an amenity element like car parking, rail replacement, ... Conversely they also may include journeys at extended times, generally or specific journeys. e.g. I can use a specific 9am journey as it only runs once a week. The Trent Barton Red Arrow is allowed from Derby, but not from Nottingham - different county councils. Journeys crossing into Wales or Scotland get complicated, but may be allowed either way.

You can find the Acts of Parliament and read them if you want, but most issuing authorities have a simplified explanation in the bus pass usage section.

You have to ask locally for the variations.
 

IanMac

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The Trent Barton Red Arrow is allowed from Derby, but not from Nottingham
No, the Red Arrows do not accept ENCTS cards at all. This is because of the nature of the route, not a decision by either of the councils.

I have had occasional problems with my ENCTS card away from my home area. Examples are NatEx West Midlands, and Go-Ahead in Brighton. I understood at the time of the failures that each operator needed to validate every issuing council's range of card serial numbers, and that failure to do this had led to my valid card being rejected on every bus. Luckily drivers always let me board after scrutinising the photo and expiry date.

ENCTS cards are not compatible with TfL card readers. All TfL bus drivers should be aware of this (it's in the Big Red Book which is their training manual); they should check the photo and expiry date, and record the journey on their clicker. However some drivers notably on shorter suburban routes have forgotten this and expect the holder to waste everyone's time by presenting the card to the reader.
 

PeterC

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ENCTS cards are not compatible with TfL card readers. All TfL bus drivers should be aware of this (it's in the Big Red Book which is their training manual); they should check the photo and expiry date, and record the journey on their clicker. However some drivers notably on shorter suburban routes have forgotten this and expect the holder to waste everyone's time by presenting the card to the reader.
On one occasion I have had TfL a driver insist that I tap the card. He seemed oblivious to the fact that it had been rejected and I just went and sat down.
Normally I march on confidently holding the card up. Sometimes the driver even remembers to press the button to record my journey.

I never have problems in adjacent counties. My only issue elsewhere has been having a First driver in W Yorks shout at me for not taking my zero fare ticket. I have never had occasion to use the card in the north west
 

Simon75

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I travel occasionally on London Buses with friends with bus passes issued by other County Councils and yes they can't be read by the Oyster readers. But never known any being told to tap in and pay. Worrying that drivers (outside of London) don't always accept them. I can see a lot of having to pay for a fare, retaining the paper ticket and then claiming it back from the operator.
Correct i have a disabled non London pass, I just show it to the driver, never had and issue, apart from the odd one telling to use the card read , and me telling the. Its a non TFL card !
 

175mph

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Almost three years ago when I was in Reading, I found the ticket machines rejected my North Lincolnshire issued pass, but every time the driver immediately said go sit down without even giving the pass a further look.
 

Dwarfer1979

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No, the Red Arrows do not accept ENCTS cards at all. This is because of the nature of the route, not a decision by either of the councils.
Red Arrow was a decision by the councils, the route used to accept them and now doesn't. They were able to make that decision due to the nature of the route allowing them to exclude it (not sure which reason they used, the 3 I was aware of were either the route had over 50% of its seats as bookable like National Epress, the route is primarily intended as a leisure service like those weekend services to tourist attractions or national parks or that the primary reason to use the route was to travel on the bus such as open top or heritage services though there may have been another category that hadn't been widely publicised previously) to save some money if they choose but they didn't have to and they originally didn't.
I have had occasional problems with my ENCTS card away from my home area. Examples are NatEx West Midlands, and Go-Ahead in Brighton. I understood at the time of the failures that each operator needed to validate every issuing council's range of card serial numbers, and that failure to do this had led to my valid card being rejected on every bus. Luckily drivers always let me board after scrutinising the photo and expiry date.
It does depend somewhat on how your machines are set-up but one of the common ways is to have loaded up all the council details from an initial list when setting up but this may not get updated when councils change things and if the operator isn't local to the council they may never get told it has change to reprogramme. Some of the big groups I think have a standard dataset shared by all opcos so if you have a local subsidiary you won't have a problem anywhere but some of the other groups are more localised and for smaller or less geographical spread ones you may hit problem if you are travelling away from home (and you don't have to get far from home for the operators to not know of changes). There is another way of doing it I understand that minimises this problem with some form of open acceptance but I'm not sure even that will solve the problem entirely.
I travel occasionally on London Buses with friends with bus passes issued by other County Councils and yes they can't be read by the Oyster readers. But never known any being told to tap in and pay. Worrying that drivers (outside of London) don't always accept them. I can see a lot of having to pay for a fare, retaining the paper ticket and then claiming it back from the operator.
As others have said London don't read cards from counties they serve (like Surrey) so their drivers are more used to non-reading cards. What should happen elsewhere is that the driver should check the card and if it isn't local check the date and picture and accept, with local cards you are more likely to be told to pay and get your card sorted as it will be assumed that it would read if it was valid (and if there was a wider problem with regularly seen passes the operator would have issued an instruction about them). My dad travels extensively across the country and whilst he often encounters operators or areas where he has an issue when further from home I don't think he has ever had to pay though he has had to sometimes insist that it is valid but isn't local so their machine can't read it when the driver will accept them in the end.
 

phil1960

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ENCTS cards are not compatible with TfL card readers. All TfL bus drivers should be aware of this (it's in the Big Red Book which is their training manual); they should check the photo and expiry date, and record the journey on their clicker. However some drivers notably on shorter suburban routes have forgotten this and expect the holder to waste everyone's time by presenting the card to the reader.

So in the case of an Older Person's Freedom Pass (which is what I'll get, does this also acts as a ENCTS? The Freedom Pass I'm sure will work fine on Oyster readers on TfL buses (plus station ticket gates in London) but I could be running into the issue where nearly all buses outside of London won't be able to read it?

Phil
 

Thames99

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On the Isle of Wight they are not valid on Breezer routes travelling to the Needles etc. Other Southern Vectis routes are fine with the pass.

On the mainland the Breezer routes around Poole and Swanage do accept them including the Bournemouth - Swanage route 50 service which drives onto the ferry at Sandbanks. The buses are open top in the summer and sometimes in the winter. They have removable roofs which you can see stored next to Swanage station. This is quite a bargain even if you needed to pay with the maximum fare cap as it's a long and picturesque trip.
 

richard13

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So in the case of an Older Person's Freedom Pass (which is what I'll get, does this also acts as a ENCTS? The Freedom Pass I'm sure will work fine on Oyster readers on TfL buses (plus station ticket gates in London) but I could be running into the issue where nearly all buses outside of London won't be able to read it?

Phil
From TfL:

Using your Freedom Pass outside London​

The rose symbol on your Freedom Pass means you can travel free on local buses all over England.

Use your Freedom Pass between 9:30 and 23:00 on weekdays and anytime on weekends and public holidays.

Using bus passes if you don't live in London​

If you've got an English National Concessionary Scheme bus pass, issued by an English council outside of London, you can travel on our buses. Just show your pass to the driver.

https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/free-and-discounted-travel/freedom-pass?intcmp=54725


The Freedom pass looks like and acts the same as an ENCTS bus pass. If it works on the reader that's great, but it is not a legal requirement. Show the driver and they can record it manually if it doesn't scan. My cousin has not reported any issues.

Ask locally for local variations to the blanket availability. Happy Travels.
 

Dwarfer1979

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So in the case of an Older Person's Freedom Pass (which is what I'll get, does this also acts as a ENCTS? The Freedom Pass I'm sure will work fine on Oyster readers on TfL buses (plus station ticket gates in London) but I could be running into the issue where nearly all buses outside of London won't be able to read it?

Phil
The issue is with the readers on the machines only reading London passes, as far as I am aware the cards themselves are capable of being read on all machines assuming the caveats about specific programming issues that have been mentioned. I'm not aware of anything that suggests London passes have more of an issue than anyone else and I have been involved in companies operating in counties neighbouring London who will see them regularly. This does all assume we are talking about the over 66 Freedom pass which is valid all over England not the 60+ London only free bus pass.
 

Teds

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I used to have trouble with National Express West Midlands but this seems to have been resolved a few years ago. They also had very good arrangment for out of area card holders who needed to travel before 0930. There was a £1 flat fare.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Sheffield Supertram still accepts all ENCTS cards for free travel at the usual times. Local holders also get other concessions eg on local trains.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

There are also concessions for passholders where the fare is not free. This usually happens on tourist routes. Used to apply for some day tickets in North Wales (and maybe still does) and still does on Peak Sightseer. I have not come across any in Scotland where, in comparison with the English fare cap, the local fares are really expensive.
 
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TravelDream

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There are also concessions for passholders where the fare is not free. This usually happens on tourist routes. Used to apply for some day tickets in North Wales (and maybe still does) and still does on Peak Sightseer. I have not come across any in Scotland where, in comparison with the English fare cap, the local fares are really expensive.

There still is in North Wales.

The '1bws' ticket costs £7 normally, but is £4.70 for English/ Scottish bus pass holders. It's valid on basically all bus services in North Wales including the Snowdon Sherpa.
 

michaelh

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My wife and I travel occasionally on buses in London with our Worcestershire passes. The driver invariably just waves us past.
 

IanMac

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I think there's a bit of a problem here with the nomenclature. In England some of us have ENCTS (outside London) cards, and some have London Freedom cards. Nobody has both, so nobody has had the full experience (except anyone who moved address into or out of London while already holding one of the cards). The OP quoted "Older Person's Bus Pass (England)" which could mean either.
 
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