Old timings, new timings

[cjp]

From "The Age Of The Train"

in 1982 London to Reading - 22 minutes Tonight 24 minutes

in 1982 Liverpool Street to Cambridge - 1 hr 3 min Tonight 1hr 11min

In 1982 Perth to Inverness - 3hrs 9 min Today 2 hrs 9min

http://www.projectmapping.co.uk/Reviews/Resources/Inter-City%201982.jpg

20 years of progress. Or timetable padding?

 

[ainsworth74]

Those are the fastest journey times. What about the ones you're comparing those times to?

 

[cjp]

Those are the fastest journey times. What about the ones you're comparing those times to?

I did not plow through the timetables just picked up what I was offered on a booking site and selected the fastest of those I was offered.
Paddington - Reading seems about right and the time saved Perth - Inverness was impressive - as it always seems to take for ever on the journey - mind you the scenery is rather grand.

 

[jnjkerbin]

Equally there are journeys that have sped up:

London - Dover: 1h31 then, 1h10 (from St Pancras) (but 2h1m from Charing Cross) now

London - Weymouth: 2h42m then, 2h38m now.

London - Taunton: 1h43 then, 1h41 now.

London - Brighton: 58m then, 52m now.

London - Holyhead: 4h29m then, 3h37m now.

Generally not too bad seeing as the government gave up on the industry for a few years

 

[Metrailway]

On my local line:

1977:
Amersham - Baker Street (Fast) - 39 minutes.
Amersham - Marylebone with a stop at Moor Park - 38 minutes.
Amersham - Baker Street (local) - 52 minutes.

These were journey times for regular services not just 'headline times'.

2013:
Amersham - Baker Street (Fast) - 48 minutes
Amersham - Marylebone without stop at Moor Park - 39 minutes
Amersham - Baker Street (local) - 55 minutes

Fast = All stations to Moor Park, then Harrow on the Hill, Finchley Road, and Baker Street.
Local = All stations to Baker Street.

 

[hello]

Equally there are journeys that have sped up:

London - Dover: 1h31 then, 1h10 (from St Pancras) (but 2h1m from Charing Cross) now

London - Weymouth: 2h42m then, 2h38m now.

London - Taunton: 1h43 then, 1h41 now.

London - Brighton: 58m then, 52m now.

London - Holyhead: 4h29m then, 3h37m now.

Generally not too bad seeing as the government gave up on the industry for a few years

when cce was introduced on brighton mainline, in about 1993 ish, it was timed at about 49mins, but normally did it in 44-46mins

 

[cjp]

On my local line:

1977:
Amersham - Baker Street (Fast) - 39 minutes.
Amersham - Marylebone with a stop at Moor Park - 38 minutes.
Amersham - Baker Street (local) - 52 minutes.

These were journey times for regular services not just 'headline times'.

2013:
Amersham - Baker Street (Fast) - 48 minutes
Amersham - Marylebone without stop at Moor Park - 39 minutes
Amersham - Baker Street (local) - 55 minutes

I wonder how TfL / LUL would explain away these "negative inprovements" - following the detestable ATOC use of "negative easements"

 

[transmanche]

On my local line:

1977:
Amersham - Baker Street (Fast) - 39 minutes.

2013:
Amersham - Baker Street (Fast) - 48 minutes

Fast = All stations to Moor Park, then Harrow on the Hill, Finchley Road, and Baker Street.

I wonder how TfL / LUL would explain away these "negative inprovements"

Well firstly, there are no off-peak fast services any more; TfL say they have to be all-stations to 'maintain reliability'. Secondly, I think the S stock is still limited to the slower A stock speeds (max 50mph?), whereas back in 1977 they were operating at their full speed. Again I believe they will be speeded up following resignalling.

Finally, I'm not sure where the 48 mins time comes from, as on the current timetable these are the only Amersham-Baker Street fasts:

06:52 45 mins
07:23 42 mins
07:55 45 mins
08:27 46 mins
08:59 45 mins

source: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/amersham-chesham-tube-guide.pdf

I don't know what the BR service was like in 1977, but since then it looks like Chiltern have taken on the 'express' role, with TfL concentrating on stopping services. Chiltern now operate four non-stop Amersham-Marylebone services in the morning peak; taking 30, 35, 32 and 37 minutes respectively.

 

[MichaelAMW]

From "The Age Of The Train"

in 1982 London to Reading - 22 minutes Tonight 24 minutes

in 1982 Liverpool Street to Cambridge - 1 hr 3 min Tonight 1hr 11min

In 1982 Perth to Inverness - 3hrs 9 min Today 2 hrs 9min

http://www.projectmapping.co.uk/Reviews/Resources/Inter-City%201982.jpg

20 years of progress. Or timetable padding?

You're being rather selective in your quoting ffrom that document, as I suspect you well know...!

Elsewwhere in this forum, people have remarked that 22mins Pad-Reading was only possible with sustained speeding at 135mph, so that's not the way it's done these days. Liverpool Street at the time was the principal London terminus for Cambridge, which is no longer the case, so the service on that route is now only semi-fast. The main route is now into Kings Cross, to which you can journey in 45 mins, hourly.

Much more significant, and a general slowing down, is an area you didn't mention, which is Bristol and South Wales. Newport is up from 1hr24 to 1hr45, partly I imagine to do with that 125mph speed limit but mostly because of all the extra stops. A number of Swansea trains used to be fast to Newport whereas now they stop at least three times. Similarly, Swansea has gone from 2hr39 to 2hr58 and Bristol 1hr25 to 1hr39.

However, as others have said, many routes are a lot (or a bit) faster. Your Perth - Inverness comparison is specious as you have looked at the difference in arrival times at the two stations for the one train from London, not at the fastest service between them at that time. The whole train didn't go all the way to Inverness. Certainly later, latter half of the 80s, it split at Carstairs and there was an Edinburgh portion. Before that, a bit was taken off at Perth, so the departure would have been somewhat after arrival. That train, the Clansman, was a funny one as it was part of the regular half-hourly Euston - Birmingham service, but it had an 'extension' to Inverness.

 

[louis97]

Elsewwhere in this forum, people have remarked that 22mins Pad-Reading was only possible with sustained speeding at 135mph, so that's not the way it's done these days.

Although its worth noting in the other direction that is possible, Did Reading to Paddington early last year in 21 minutes - although this might not be possible at the moment with the works at Reading in full swing, once its finally completed I would imagine that would be possible again in that direction - although a clear run with no cautionary aspects would be required, especially with the supervision of ATP on the route - something that is hard to come by with all the Heathrow Express services!

However with the speeds out of Paddington station, I would say the Reading direction is minimum journey time of about 24 minutes, simply because of the way the speeds are drawn out, and you can brake down to them into London much quicker than you can accelerate through them out of London.

Would not mind seeing a 180 do PAD-RDG non-stop without any cautionary aspects, I can perhaps see it doing it in around 22 minutes with the acceleration and shorter length train they are.

 

[MCR247]

Assuming it doesn't catch fire

 

[cjp]

You're being rather selective in your quoting ffrom that document, as I suspect you well know...!

Of course I selected - I selected some routes I know. I certainly had no inclination to go over the whole map comparing now and then. and I explained my methodology to ainsworth74

That said I found your insights and the comments of others to be both enlightening and interesting so "Thank you".

 

[Metrailway]

Well firstly, there are no off-peak fast services any more; TfL say they have to be all-stations to 'maintain reliability'. Secondly, I think the S stock is still limited to the slower A stock speeds (max 50mph?), whereas back in 1977 they were operating at their full speed. Again I believe they will be speeded up following resignalling.

Yes speeds should improve after resignalling... but the Met will not be return to services as fast as the times I've quoted above, as the S Stock has a lower top speed. TfL have also implied that they have no intention of returning line speeds back to 70mph (which were prevalent until the mid 2000s) for Chiltern services.

TfL have stated that they have no intention of restoring off peak fast Met services even after the upgrade. They have also timetabled it so the slow Chesham doesn't connect with the faster Chiltern service.

Needless to say nearly everyone on the north end of the Met is very unhappy. TfL didn't even do a proper consultation when they got rid of the fast off peaks.

Finally, I'm not sure where the 48 mins time comes from, as on the current timetable these are the only Amersham-Baker Street fasts:

06:52 45 mins
07:23 42 mins
07:55 45 mins
08:27 46 mins
08:59 45 mins

source: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/amersham-chesham-tube-guide.pdf

I don't know what the BR service was like in 1977, but since then it looks like Chiltern have taken on the 'express' role, with TfL concentrating on stopping services. Chiltern now operate four non-stop Amersham-Marylebone services in the morning peak; taking 30, 35, 32 and 37 minutes respectively.

Apologies - I accidentally used the Winter WTT!

BR ran a 15 minute interval service between Aylesbury and Marylebone during peak times in 1977 (more peak services when compared to today). They only skipped Rickmansworth and Moor Park, and took 34 or 35 minutes, so faster than one of the non-stop services today!

The Met also ran a 15 minute interval fast service as well between Chalfont - Baker Street which ran on top of the 15 minute interval provided by BR. The fast Met would take 41 or 42 minutes (from Amersham) at peak.

In addition to the fast Met service, the Met also provided a 4tph slow service from Amersham.

So the 1977 peak service was more frequent than the current peak service.

 

[MichaelAMW]

Of course I selected - I selected some routes I know. I certainly had no inclination to go over the whole map comparing now and then.

Well, I was only pulling your leg...!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Although its worth noting in the other direction that is possible, Did Reading to Paddington early last year in 21 minutes - although this might not be possible at the moment with the works at Reading in full swing, once its finally completed I would imagine that would be possible again in that direction - although a clear run with no cautionary aspects would be required, especially with the supervision of ATP on the route - something that is hard to come by with all the Heathrow Express services!

However with the speeds out of Paddington station, I would say the Reading direction is minimum journey time of about 24 minutes, simply because of the way the speeds are drawn out, and you can brake down to them into London much quicker than you can accelerate through them out of London.

Would not mind seeing a 180 do PAD-RDG non-stop without any cautionary aspects, I can perhaps see it doing it in around 22 minutes with the acceleration and shorter length train they are.

Your remarks about Paddington are interesting as the original intention of the new layout there was to allow an HST to basically leave at full power and not have to worry about speeding. One consequence of the unfortunate Ladbroke Grove crash is the blanket 40 then 50 limit for the first couple of miles, which is slower than before. All of those lovely high-speed points are not used at their design speed.

 

[flymo]

Elsewwhere in this forum, people have remarked that 22mins Pad-Reading was only possible with sustained speeding at 135mph, so that's not the way it's done these days.

I don't have the '82 timetable to hand but do have the '84 timetable and there were quite a few departures during the day timetabled for 22 minutes in the down direction, typically xx:00, xx:05 or xx:45 from Paddington and into Reading at xx:22, xx:27 or xx:07 respectively. Not ALL were timetabled for 22 minutes, some were 23, 25 or more. The first 22 minute one was the 08:00 "Saint David" to Swansea. These wouldn't all be timetabled for speeding at 135 mph running surely, would they??

Up, the fastest seemed to be timed at around 27 minutes.

All just FYI.

 

[burty76]

Lots of examples both good and bad.

Cotswold Line had a 1hr 52 timing from London to Worcester in the mid-80's, now the fastest is about 2h 10, with about 3 extra stops. Most trains take over 2h 20m now though, all down to ridiculous padding in the timetable.

On the plus side, theres far more trains from Birmingham to Derby for example, and they're all about 10 minutes quicker than 20 years ago.

 

[louis97]

I don't have the '82 timetable to hand but do have the '84 timetable and there were quite a few departures during the day timetabled for 22 minutes in the down direction, typically xx:00, xx:05 or xx:45 from Paddington and into Reading at xx:22, xx:27 or xx:07 respectively. Not ALL were timetabled for 22 minutes, some were 23, 25 or more. The first 22 minute one was the 08:00 "Saint David" to Swansea. These wouldn't all be timetabled for speeding at 135 mph running surely, would they??

No doubt timetabled to be able to go straight to 125mph, 2 minutes extra journey time now would make sense with the speed restrictions at 40 mph until 1 mile out of the station, then up to 50mph until 2 miles out of Paddington, before finally going up to 100mph just over 2 miles out then finally 125 mph at Acton Mainline, 4 miles out.

Amazing seeing how the xx00 used to arrive Reading by xx22, when now the Oxford Fast is timetabled to leave Reading then! This then knocks onto the xx06 as is now, which before having its separate platform didn't used to arrive till xx31 at the earliest, xx29 could be just do-able now with the separate platform.