Old signal information required.

[Cowley]

Afternoon everyone.

A friend of mine lives in an old railway workers cottage near Whimple beside the West of England line. In amongst the garden undergrowth is this old relic which I said I’d try and find a bit of information on for him:




My initial thoughts were that it was possibly a Southern Railway signal originally and someone had replaced the main part of the arm at some point? Or that the whole thing is original and that’s just the way it’s decayed?

Really not sure. Has anyone got any thoughts?

 

[The_train_kid]

Hi there,
To me that looks like some part of it has been replaced as there is a clear point where the red and black separates.
Although I'm not that familiar with semaphor signals, that definitely looks like it has been bodged on the back.
Hope that is brings more light to it!

 

[Railsigns]

It's a bodge where someone has attached a GWR-style lower quadrant stop arm to an upper quadrant spectacle plate.

 

[Cowley]

It's a bodge where someone has attached a GWR-style lower quadrant stop arm to an upper quadrant spectacle plate.

Interesting. So you think the main arm is a GWR style one then?

 

[Railsigns]

So you think the main arm is a GWR style one then?

It's definitely a GWR-style arm, but could be of more recent (BR Western Region) manufacture.

What isn't clear to me is why part of the spectacle plate, where a fifth hole for attaching an upper quadrant arm would be located, has been cut away. Whoever put this together has succeeded in damaging both parts.

 

[Cowley]

It's definitely a GWR-style arm, but could be of more recent (BR Western Region) manufacture.

What isn't clear to me is why part of the spectacle plate, where a fifth hole for attaching an upper quadrant arm would be located, has been cut away. Whoever put this together has succeeded in damaging both parts.

Yes that’s what I was wondering when I first saw the pictures. Kind of like taking two interesting artefacts and turning them into one single abomination.

 

[John Webb]

The back view indicates a pair of horizontal corrugations in the spectacle plate in which an arm with corrugations would have fitted. Such arms were in use by several railway company from around 1910 onwards and were originally used with cast-iron spectacles. However the spectacle plate in this case is a pressed steel one, not cast. So far I've not been able to find a date for when the changeover occurred.

The corrugated arms were slightly narrower than the arm that is now fitted to the signal, hence the 'bodged' look.

It's definitely a GWR-style arm, but could be of more recent (BR Western Region) manufacture.

What isn't clear to me is why part of the spectacle plate, where a fifth hole for attaching an upper quadrant arm would be located, has been cut away. Whoever put this together has succeeded in damaging both parts.

I don't think it has been 'cut away' - I suspect heavy rusting around the fifth bolt hole and that the end had dropped or broken off when the arm needed changing.

 

[Cowley]

The back view indicates a pair of horizontal corrugations in the spectacle plate in which an arm with corrugations would have fitted. Such arms were in use by several railway company from around 1910 onwards and were originally used with cast-iron spectacles. However the spectacle plate in this case is a pressed steel one, not cast. So far I've not been able to find a date for when the changeover occurred.

The corrugated arms were slightly narrower than the arm that is now fitted to the signal, hence the 'bodged' look.

I don't think it has been 'cut away' - I suspect heavy rusting around the fifth bolt hole and that the end had dropped or broken off when the arm needed changing.

Thanks John, that’s really helpful.

I hadn’t even noticed the corrugated section on the spectacle plate. Are we looking at something along the lines of the one in the centre on the Bluebell Railway:


(Cropped image from the Bluebell Railway site)

 

[Gloster]

I agree that it does look like a Western arm on a Southern spectacle plate. Possibly a lash-up from the period between the takeover west of Salisbury by the WR and the conversion to colour lights that came with the introduction of Tokenless Block. That is if it came from near Whimple: otherwise it could be later.

 

[Cowley]

I agree that it does look like a Western arm on a Southern spectacle plate. Possibly a lash-up from the period between the takeover west of Salisbury by the WR and the conversion to colour lights that came with the introduction of Tokenless Block. That is if it came from near Whimple: otherwise it could be later.

@Gloster - Do you mean that this might have been altered by BR S&T then?

 

[Gloster]

@Gloster - Do you mean that this might have been altered by BR S&T then?

Yes, it could have been them. However, it might have been a job that was required where it was known to have a limited life, possibly due to rationalisation or due to conversion to colour lights: I don’t think that a job intended to be permanent would be bodged like this. It could be an enthusiast, but it seems to be a bit pointless unless you have somehow acquired two damaged arms.

 

[Cowley]

Yes, it could have been them. However, it might have been a job that was required where it was known to have a limited life, possibly due to rationalisation or due to conversion to colour lights: I don’t think that a job intended to be permanent would be bodged like this. It could be an enthusiast, but it seems to be a bit pointless unless you have somehow acquired two damaged arms.

That’s definitely an interesting possibility. I’m assuming that it came from somewhere around Whimple or Feniton but I’ve no way of knowing for certain unfortunately.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Sidmouth Jct,Whimple and Crannaford Gates all closed on 1967. I`d imagine them to have been pure Southern signals to the end. I would say the arm and spec plate are a bodge created for display, i can`t imagine that this was done by BR. Was this found in the garden after your friend moved in?

 

[Cowley]

Sidmouth Jct,Whimple and Crannaford Gates all closed on 1967. I`d imagine them to have been pure Southern signals to the end. I would say the arm and spec plate are a bodge created for display, i can`t imagine that this was done by BR. Was this found in the garden after your friend moved in?

I think it was dumped in an overgrown greenhouse in the garden by the landlord, but I’m not sure where he got it from and he doesn’t seem particularly interested in it. I’ll ask my friend if he knows how it got there tomorrow though.

 

[Ashley Hill]

A previous non-enthusiast tennant may have wanted something "railway" to put in the garden and came up with this. No wonder it was left behind.

 

[Cowley]

A previous non-enthusiast tennant may have wanted something "railway" to put in the garden and came up with this. No wonder it was left behind.

 

[John Webb]

Thanks John, that’s really helpful.

I hadn’t even noticed the corrugated section on the spectacle plate. Are we looking at something along the lines of the one in the centre on the Bluebell Railway:
View attachment 158056

(Cropped image from the Bluebell Railway site)

Glad to have been of help. Yes, both the centre and right-hand arms in the above picture are corrugated ones. They eventually came up with the flanged edges as seen on the arm in your original photos - quicker and therefore cheaper to produce, I understand.

 

[D6130]

Could it have been cobbled together to make a railway-related sign for a local pub? Are there - or were there - any pubs in the local area with an appropriate name?

 

[Cowley]

Could it have been cobbled together to make a railway-related sign for a local pub? Are there - or were there - any pubs in the local area with an appropriate name?

Not that I can think of in the local villages, but I’ll ask my friend tomorrow and see if we can find anything else out.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Could it have been cobbled together to make a railway-related sign for a local pub? Are there - or were there - any pubs in the local area with an appropriate name?

None that I’m aware of.