Old Routings

[Requeststop]

I'm interested in 2 routings. One I really should know but am very unsure about, and the other way out of my knowledge.

First the Wrexham Shropshire-Marylebone routing.

What was the routing from Tame Bridge Parkway down to Banbury? Did the service actually pass through New Street or was there some way to avoid New Street? I've been looking at my TrackAtlas, and find it difficult to see a direct route.

Secondly, a few years back, maybe more years that I care to remember, there was a direct service from London (Euston) to Inverness and reverse, avoiding both Edinburgh and Glasgow. I think it may have stopped at Carstairs and/or Motherwell, before heading northwards to Stirling? What coud be the possible routing and how would the change of traction be handled?

Knowing you people as I think I have become used to, are there any other old routings now no longer used, especially avoiding major cities?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Wrexham & Shropshire ran via Aston and Stechford AFAIK. The Euston-Inverness ran via Motherwell, Cumbernauld and Larbert.

 

[ATW Alex 101]

The Wrexham and Shropshire route took a line just before Duddeston that continues on to Adderley Park. Then through International and Coventry then following the single track that XC use to Leamington Spa. Go on project mapping and look at an all stations map before 2011 and it clearly shows the route it took. Virgin sometimes use that diversion then take a left before Wallsall then enter the mainline just before Penkridge.

 

[dave_wm]

Wrexham & Shropshire used two different routings - most trains went Tame Bridge Parkway - Aston - Stechford - Coventry - Leamington Spa, whilst a few went Tame Bridge Parkway - Soho Jn - Birmingham New Street - Proof House Junction - Bordesley Junction - Tyseley - Solihull - Leamington Spa, without stopping at New Street.

AFAIK, the trains from Euston to Inverness called at Motherwell then stopped at Mossend Yard to change engines, before traveling via Cumbernauld and onwards to Stirling and Inverness.

 

[ATW Alex 101]

Further to my last post, I can now supply you with a link to the project mapping, I was on a tablet earlier but I am now on a laptop.

http://www.projectmapping.co.uk/Resources/TOCs AS v3 Dec 2010.pdf

Scroll down to the Birmingham area and you can see the WSMR route. It took a fork off after Aston and joined at Stechford/Lea hall

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Ah, Project Mapping. So good yet so awfully inconsistent at the same time. I wouldn't go 100% with them on something like routeing, I'd double check: as is explained in the dave_wm's post, they had two different routes.

The names you're after also are Stechford N Jn-Aston S Jn and Bescot Jn-Bushbury Jn (it's quite a distance from Penkridge too btw, about 7 miles IIRC).

 

[ATW Alex 101]

Yes that's the thing. It only shows one route for WSMR, not the other one it could take. Project mapping doesn't show other potential routes and only the main route.

 

[IrishDave]

First the Wrexham Shropshire-Marylebone routing.

What was the routing from Tame Bridge Parkway down to Banbury? Did the service actually pass through New Street or was there some way to avoid New Street? I've been looking at my TrackAtlas, and find it difficult to see a direct route.

According to PSUL from 2009, most of the WSMR services were booked Banbury-Leamington-Coventry-Stechford-Aston-Tame Bridge Parkway (in particular the one and only WSMR service I was on in July 2009 went that way). The exceptions in 2009 were:

• 0512 SSuX Wrexham General - Marylebone
• 0645 SSuX Marylebone - Wrexham General
• all Sunday journeys

and these were routed through New Street, specifically Banbury-Leamington-Solihull-Small Heath Jn-Bordesley Jn-St Andrews Jn-Proof House Jn-New Street-Soho S/E Jn-Perry Barr W/N Jn-Tame Bridge Parkway.

The list of services via each route changed each year, though, and occasionally when there was work on the Chiltern they'd be diverted up the WCML.

 

[D841 Roebuck]

Some years ago, on summer Saturdays, certain trains on the North East to South West route used to avoid Birmingham by using the link from the Camp Hill line to Saltley.

 

[ATW Alex 101]

Knowing you people as I think I have become used to, are there any other old routings now no longer used, especially avoiding major cities?

When XC used to run to Brighton via East Croydon, they took a right after Acton Main line then joined the West London line at Kensington Olympia then through to Clapham Junction and down the BML. That's a line I don't believe is used by passenger services. I also believe that sometimes they could be diverted via a reversal at Clapham Junction and via Brixton and Tulse hill. I dont know if that's correct.

 

[30907]

When XC used to run to Brighton via East Croydon, they took a right after Acton Main line then joined the West London line at Kensington Olympia then through to Clapham Junction and down the BML. That's a line I don't believe is used by passenger services. I also believe that sometimes they could be diverted via a reversal at Clapham Junction and via Brixton and Tulse hill. I dont know if that's correct.

After the connection at North Pole was removed they "turned left" at Acton and went via Willesden SW Sidings. See threads on "Parliamentary" workings - in this case a weekly bus.
Via Brixton and Tulse Hill was used for engineering work diversions, and then regularly (after the Dover train was withdrawn), thus providing a "Parliamentary" service itself via Longhedge to Factory Junction.
I'd be surprised if it went via Clapham Jn to reverse though.

 

[Wath Yard]

Secondly, a few years back, maybe more years that I care to remember, there was a direct service from London (Euston) to Inverness and reverse, avoiding both Edinburgh and Glasgow. I think it may have stopped at Carstairs and/or Motherwell, before heading northwards to Stirling? What coud be the possible routing and how would the change of traction be handled?

The routing was, not surprisingly, the direct line from Motherwell - Stirling (via Cumbernauld). Loco changeovers took place at Mossend.

There was one service, a Summer Saturday Paignton - Inverness service I believe, that was routed via Glasgow Queen Street.

 

[ATW Alex 101]

After the connection at North Pole was removed they "turned left" at Acton and went via Willesden SW Sidings. See threads on "Parliamentary" workings - in this case a weekly bus.
Via Brixton and Tulse Hill was used for engineering work diversions, and then regularly (after the Dover train was withdrawn), thus providing a "Parliamentary" service itself via Longhedge to Factory Junction.
I'd be surprised if it went via Clapham Jn to reverse though.

Ah right. I always thought it turned right. A family member who traveled on the service mentioned it to me once and I'm certain he said that the train made a non passenger stop and reversed at Clapham Junction

 

[Welshman]

Knowing you people as I think I have become used to, are there any other old routings now no longer used, especially avoiding major cities?

There used to be the old GN spur from Bowling Junction to Laisterdyke [SE of Bradford Exchange-now Interchange], which allowed Leeds portions of L&Y Liverpool/Manchester/Halifax/Bradford trains, which were detatched at Low Moor, to access Leeds Central without reversing at Bradford.

But when the service was turned-over to dmus in 1962, they started reversing in Bradford Exchange, and the spur from Bowling to Laisterdyke fell into disuse. Although there has been recent talk of reinstating it, to allow Halifax-Leeds trains a faster journey.

Talking of the old L&Y Liverpool Exchange-Manchester Victoria line, there used to be the Pemberton loop, bypassing Wigan Wallgate, now no longer in use.

I suspect one which is greatly missed today, though, is the old Lincoln bypass, which allowed freight and passenger workings the opportunity of travelling Doncaster-Sleaford-Spalding without passing through Lincoln station - it would be especially handy to have that facility now, bearing in mind the bottlenecks in Lincoln with the busy level-crossings. And continuing south-eastwards on the old Joint line, you could then go from Spalding to March without weaving through Peterborough. Again, it would be useful to have that line restored now.

 

[D6975]

The routing was, not surprisingly, the direct line from Motherwell - Stirling (via Cumbernauld). Loco changeovers took place at Mossend.

There was one service, a Summer Saturday Paignton - Inverness service I believe, that was routed via Glasgow Queen Street.

There was a weekdays Taunton-Inverness back sometime late 80s/ early 90s.
At the time it was the only booked class 26 diagram in the country, for the drag back into Queen St from Cowlairs. Due to the appalling timekeeping of the service, it often didn't happen, passengers for Glasgow being dropped off at Motherwell and passengers from Glasgow being sent to Stirling to connect.

 

[30907]

There was also the curve in the Farnley Jn area avoiding Leeds which the evening Bradford Executive used - someone will know the names.

 

[43106]

Some years ago, on summer Saturdays, certain trains on the North East to South West route used to avoid Birmingham by using the link from the Camp Hill line to Saltley.

I can confirm this. While at Aston Uni in mid-September 1994, I stayed at one of the 3 hi-rises on the campus (Grant Tower?) and my bedroom window looked towards Grand Junction and St. Andrew's (Birmingham City F.C.) and I actually saw an HST set going from the Saltley line towards Bordesley Junction, though I don't if it went towards Cheltenham or Leamington.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

When XC used to run to Brighton via East Croydon, they took a right after Acton Main line then joined the West London line at Kensington Olympia then through to Clapham Junction and down the BML. That's a line I don't believe is used by passenger services. I also believe that sometimes they could be diverted via a reversal at Clapham Junction and via Brixton and Tulse hill. I dont know if that's correct.

No, not quite. In September 1996, I travelled on a direct Brighton to Edinburgh train. It went Brighton - East Croydon - Norbury - Clapham Junction - Kensington Olympia. There is NO direct connection between K. Olymp and the GWML out of Paddington, as it goes from Ken Olymp and crosses the GWML near wher the old Eurostar North Pole depot was. It heads towards the WCML coming out of Euston and actually runs parallel with it for a short distance. It then heads away from Willesden Junction, picks up the lines from Neasden and Willesden High Level in rapid succession, then branches off the line to Gunnersbury at Acton Wells Junction and joins the slow/relief lines out of Paddington at Acton Main Line. In my case, our train stayed on the slow lines all the way to Reading, which was a pain in the gluteus maximus, as we crawled.
I am not aware of any other diversionary routes between Kenny O and East Croydon.

 

[30907]

@43106 - see my earlier post. When these trains were first introduced around 1980, the connection to the GW Main lines was still in place at North Pole Jn and AFAIK they used it.

However, I've just come across a 1992 pic (on a German site!) which shows the SR-bound train heading towards Willesden, so I may be wrong (at least in that direction)

 

[Welshman]

There was also the curve in the Farnley Jn area avoiding Leeds which the evening Bradford Executive used - someone will know the names.

Ah, yes. I think this was the old Copley Hill spur. I remember there was a great protest from the good folks of Bradford when BR decided not to use it anymore, and for a long time the tracks were still there under the inevitable sycamores which rapidly sprang-up. Are they still there, or have they eventually been cleared?

Of course, the spur would be of no use today except for those occasions when Grand Central diverts via Engine Shed junction because of line closures in the Halifax/Brighouse/Mirfield areas, as the remaining regular EC Bradford/Kings Cross
services now use Forster Square and the Aire Valley.

 

[AJP62]

I can confirm this. While at Aston Uni in mid-September 1994, I stayed at one of the 3 hi-rises on the campus (Grant Tower?) and my bedroom window looked towards Grand Junction and St. Andrew's (Birmingham City F.C.) and I actually saw an HST set going from the Saltley line towards Bordesley Junction, though I don't if it went towards Cheltenham or Leamington.

I was there in the early 80s - towers were Dalton, Lawrence and Stafford back then with Dalton being closest to Saltley. I was in Dalton, 11th floor, but on the wrong side to see any railway lines but our kitchen looked towards St Andrews and a constant stream of trains was visible on various routes. I expect the train you saw was a summer Saturday schedule one which skipped New Street going direct from Derby to Cheltenham via the Camp Hill route.

BTW Dalton and Lawrence were knocked down a couple of years ago - not sure if Stafford is still there but it wasn't knocked down with the other two. I met my wife in Dalton so no chance of a revisit now!

 

[sprinterguy]

I was there in the early 80s - towers were Dalton, Lawrence and Stafford back then with Dalton being closest to Saltley. I was in Dalton, 11th floor, but on the wrong side to see any railway lines but our kitchen looked towards St Andrews and a constant stream of trains was visible on various routes. I expect the train you saw was a summer Saturday schedule one which skipped New Street going direct from Derby to Cheltenham via the Camp Hill route.

BTW Dalton and Lawrence were knocked down a couple of years ago - not sure if Stafford is still there but it wasn't knocked down with the other two. I met my wife in Dalton so no chance of a revisit now!

That’s an excellent memory you have there, to remember the names of the towers after so many years. Is it really a couple of years since they demolished them? Thinking about it, I suppose that it is.

Stafford Tower is still there, and still inhabited for the moment, although its’ days are numbered. I suspect that the current Academic year will be its’ last, as the new accommodation adjacent to it is expected to open next September/October.

 

[AJP62]

sprinterguy - but don't ask me what happened last week!

I thought they were great places to live but these days a bathroom shared by 6 or more plus one tiny two pin plug per room wouldn't meet people or equipment's requirements!

 

[route:oxford]

The routing was, not surprisingly, the direct line from Motherwell - Stirling (via Cumbernauld). Loco changeovers took place at Mossend.

Any idea of the full routing and timings of this service?

Late autumn the local papers were promsing a direct service between Stirling & Euston, I'm sure it would be a bit quicker by Pendonlino or Voyager.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobil...41?_=a03f5951cdb65350425e26e8fdbd62bb0b23d4a7

 

[AJP62]

The original Clansman left Euston in the timings of one of the regular Euston Birminghams then continued up the WCML from Birmingham. It left Euston about 9am and was in Carlisle about 14.00. It had an extended stay here as it was rewatered then continued to Motherwell, off to Mossend for a loco change, usually to 47/4 as it was an aircon set, then through Cumbernauld to Stirling and on to Inverness where I think it arrrived about 20.00.

Southbound it left Inverness about 10am and was in Carlisle for its extended stop about 16.15 then on to Brminham and into one of the regular paths to Euston.

After a few years it changed to a portioned working but I'm not as familiar with the route or timings. From memory for the portioned working the three Mk3 Brake Firsts were built. I expect northbound the non-Inverness portion continued to Glasgow or Edinburgh and was coming back south to join the southbound portion (a different set) at Carstairs.

 

[Bullfield WEst]

The London (Euston) to Inverness services that I've traveled on (from Preston) used to change traction at Mossend. So it's a right turn after Motherwell.

 

[Wath Yard]

Any idea of the full routing and timings of this service?

Late autumn the local papers were promsing a direct service between Stirling & Euston, I'm sure it would be a bit quicker by Pendonlino or Voyager.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobil...41?_=a03f5951cdb65350425e26e8fdbd62bb0b23d4a7

It wouldn't use the same route if reintroduced. It would have been an extension of an Edinburgh service. That isn't inside knowledge, just an assumption based on the way the railway has evolved since privatisation.

Virgin can't revive plans for anything. They're on a management contract with the DfT taking the financial risk, so don't believe every bit of PR you read in a local rag.

 

[RJ]

When XC used to run to Brighton via East Croydon, they took a right after Acton Main line then joined the West London line at Kensington Olympia then through to Clapham Junction and down the BML. That's a line I don't believe is used by passenger services. I also believe that sometimes they could be diverted via a reversal at Clapham Junction and via Brixton and Tulse hill. I dont know if that's correct.

1.) East Croydon --> Selhurst --> Balham --> Clapham Junction --> Kensington Olympia.

2.) East Croydon --> Norwood Junction --> West Norwood --> Balham --> Clapham Junction --> Kensington Olympia.

3.) East Croydon --> Norwood Junction --> West Norwood Jn --> Tulse Hill -> Herne Hill --> Brixton --> Voltaire Road Jn --> Factory Jn --> Longhedge Jn --> Latchmere Jn ---> Kensington Olympia.

I never knew this service to reverse at Clapham Junction - very unlikely unless there was some sort of blockage in the Longhedge - Latchmere line.

 

[Erniescooper]

The original Clansman left Euston in the timings of one of the regular Euston Birminghams then continued up the WCML from Birmingham. It left Euston about 9am and was in Carlisle about 14.00. It had an extended stay here as it was rewatered then continued to Motherwell, off to Mossend for a loco change, usually to 47/4 as it was an aircon set, then through Cumbernauld to Stirling and on to Inverness where I think it arrrived about 20.00.

Southbound it left Inverness about 10am and was in Carlisle for its extended stop about 16.15 then on to Brminham and into one of the regular paths to Euston.

After a few years it changed to a portioned working but I'm not as familiar with the route or timings. From memory for the portioned working the three Mk3 Brake Firsts were built. I expect northbound the non-Inverness portion continued to Glasgow or Edinburgh and was coming back south to join the southbound portion (a different set) at Carstairs.

When the Clansman first ran in 1986 for the first 12 months it ran via the Trent valley with Mk3 stock , it split at Carstairs with the electric taking the front portion to Glasgow and then a 47 was added to the rear portion which went forward to Inverness via Mossend. Southbound the 47 was taken off at Carstairs with the Glasgow portion going past and then reversing onto the Inverness portion.

 

[AJP62]

When the Clansman first ran in 1986 for the first 12 months it ran via the Trent valley with Mk3 stock , it split at Carstairs with the electric taking the front portion to Glasgow and then a 47 was added to the rear portion which went forward to Inverness via Mossend. Southbound the 47 was taken off at Carstairs with the Glasgow portion going past and then reversing onto the Inverness portion.

I think that was a revived Clansman - the original that I first described started in the mid 70s when electrification meant there was now time to do a daytime trip from London to Inverness. It didn't start right away in '74 but a couple of years later. I think it was an over provision of capacity as it was a full Euston - West Midlands 11 or 12 carriage set all the way.

The one you describe is probably the second one I mentioned that I wasn't as familiar with. The reduced capacity was probably much more suitable.

 

[Erniescooper]

Thanks for that I had'nt realised the Clansman was much older than 1986 , if I remember right after the first year it was re-routed via Birmingham and downgraded to mk2 stock as it was how you described in the 70's.