Offered Anytime Single when Super Off-Peak Day Travelcard is valid for itinerary

[Royston Vasey]

Hi All, wondering what the Forum's view is here.

I am planning a one way journey from Foxton to Heathrow Terminal 5 via Thameslink and Elizabeth Line on a Wednesday afternoon in November, using a Network Railcard.

All the conventional retailers will sell me an Anytime Day Single with NSE discount at £32.85, including Raileasy and Thameslink.

Only Trainsplit is offering a Foxton to London Zones 1-6 Super Off-Peak Day Travelcard with restriction TN, for £22.55, which for the record is not a split and is valid at London Terminals any time from 10:55. Since off peak travelcards are valid any time after 09.30, this is clearly a valid and much better value ticket than the Anytime Single (there is no Super Off Peak Single for this journey). Am I missing something? Is the Anytime also valid on HEX? I feel sure it is not.

I had selected Heathrow Terminal 5 (HWV) as destination, not London Travelcard Z1-6. If I select London Travelcard Z1-6 as the destination (on sites where this is possible) I can buy the £22.55 ticket. I can do this from Thameslink, Raileasy does not offer London Travelcard Zone X as a destination and amusingly, though I can specify the London Travelcard Zone 6 on Trainsplit, it cannot sell the ticket with this search term as it needs a destination to produce an itinerary!


My question is whether not offering the cheaper and entirely valid Super Off-Peak Day Travelcard, also conferring even further validity within the zones, is a violation of the Ticketing & Settlement Agreement?

The outcome of this old thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/legislation-on-requirement-to-sell-cheapest-fares.116319/ seemed to be that the Impartiality Obligation of the TSA kind-of covers this. "Suitable" must surely imply lowest price among other things?

(a) If more than one Fare is available that meets the requirements specified by a potential Purchaser and he does not specify which of the Fares he requires, the Operator must seek any additional information from him that is necessary to enable it to recommend (in an impartial manner) which of them is suitable for him.

(b) Where an Operator is asked to recommend a suitable Fare or paragraph (a) above applies, it must request sufficient additional information to enable it to make the recommendation. This may (for example) include any of the following:-
(i) the departure and/or arrival time required; (ii) how important it is to the person requesting the Fare to minimise the journey time involved; (iii) the importance to him of the price of the Fare; (iv) whether he minds changing trains; (v) (if a return journey is to be made) the extent to which he needs flexibility in his choice of trains for that journey; (vi) whether he wants the flexibility of an Inter-available Fare; and (vii) any special requirements that he has.

(c) If more than one Fare is suitable, the Operator must explain the main features of the alternatives in an impartial manner.

Is the obligation then, in simple terms, only to sell the appropriately timed (Peak/Off Peak/Super Off Peak) ticket for the origin, route and destination the customer has specifically requested, and only Trainsplit has gone above-and-beyond and been a little more clever for me? The words "cheapest" and "lowest" do not actually appear in the TSA document. Is lowest price an obligation at all?

I realise that to sell the absolute cheapest ticket that confers validity for any specific journey is very complex, but surely when a destination is in the Travelcard or another zonal area, it should be a reasonable part of the background code to also check tickets with a Travelcard?

Or is it perfectly ok and just one more reason to use Trainsplit?

 

[miklcct]

You need to check the itinerary provided is via Elizabeth line. In such case the Travelcard should be offered. Travelcards are not valid on Heathrow Express so the single ticket should be offered if the itinerary involves Heathrow Express.

 

[RJ]

Outboundary Travelcards are often cheaper than a single, I sell them to people all the time when it makes sense to do so.

As for the if Anytime ticket is valid on Heathrow Express, yes and no. The Any Permitted (".") ticket is set at the same price as the Not Heathrow Express ticket. The price includes the premium for Heathrow Express but the latter isn't valid on it.

I'm not sure I understand the question though. It's a journey from Foxton to a station in Travelcard Zone 6 as you're using the Elizabeth Line. The Travelcard is appropriate so why would it be an violation to offer it for sale? It's not a split ticket or start/stop short so it still passes the simple test.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Outboundary Travelcards are often cheaper than a single, I sell them to people all the time when it makes sense to do so.

As for the if Anytime ticket is valid on Heathrow Express, yes and no. The Any Permitted (".") ticket is set at the same price as the Not Heathrow Express ticket. The price includes the premium for Heathrow Express but the latter isn't valid on it.

I'm not sure I understand the question though. It's a journey from Foxton to a station in zone 6 for which the Travelcard is appropriate so why would it be an violation to offer it for sale?

My question is whether it is a breach for the other sites not to offer the Travelcard!

 

[Snow1964]

My question is whether it is a breach for the other sites not to offer the Travelcard!

So not a question about travelcards, more a question if the retailer has an obligation to offer the cheapest ticket, rather than a selected range of tickets excluding the cheapest option.

 

[RJ]

My question is whether it is a breach for the other sites not to offer the Travelcard!

Ah - that's one for the experts then.

Quick bit of looking. NRE does suggest the Travelcard if you force it to put you on an Elizabeth Line train. The Thameslink website shows the Elizabeth Line option but the single ticket is set at the same price as the Heathrow Express.

I think another question might be why the Not Heathrow Express fare is that high - its £27.30 for a Foxton to Hayes & Harlington SDS and £49.80 for a SDS to Heathrow that's only valid on Elizabeth Line trains into Heathrow.

 

[Royston Vasey]

So not a question about travelcards, more a question if the retailer has an obligation to offer the cheapest ticket, rather than a selected range of tickets excluding the cheapest option.

Yes, this case happens to be a Travelcard, although I don't know of any other "destinations" that are offered which are actually zonal (WYTPE maybe?)

I am not querying their selling of an A-B ticket when an A-C ticket and stop short may occasionally be cheaper. I think that is not unfair.

But here should not a query for a destination in the Travelcard Zones automatically search Travelcard options also? (which will frequently be more expensive than point to point and can in that case be filtered out)


Another interesting set of variations is Liverpool Street to Heathrow Terminal 5, which now has rail-only options.

- Thameslink offers no fares
- Raileasy offers no fares
- Trainsplit offers a £13 (Railcard capped) London Undergrnd Zones 1-6 to Heathrow Rail Off-Peak Day Single (CDS)
- Greater Anglia offers only the £28 Anytime Day Single Via Heathrow Express and calls it "Cheapest Single fare"
- But if you click on "Check for alternative trains on slower routes" it lists the following options. The Anytime Day Single route "." returns a N/A when clicked and the Off-Peak Day Single Not Heathrow Exp when clicked takes off the railcard discount and displays £13 tickets on any afternoon train.

Journey Selection​

The ticket types valid for your journey are listed below. Find the availability of your preferred fare by clicking the relevant Check for trains button.
Ticket typeRoute/CompanyPrice

• Anytime Day SingleVia Undergrd/Dlr£6.30
• Anytime Day Single.£11.40
• Off-Peak Day SingleNot Heathrow Exp£14.30
• Anytime Day SingleNot Heathrow Exp£16.10
• Anytime Day Single (1st Class).£17.10
• Anytime Day SingleHeathrow Express£28.00
• Anytime Day SingleHeathrow Express£28.00
• Anytime Web SingleHeathrow Express£28.00
• Anytime Web SingleHeathrow Express£28.00
• Anytime Day SingleHeathrow Express£28.30
• Anytime Web SingleHeathrow Express£28.30
• Anytime Day SingleHeathrow Express£28.90
• Anytime Web SingleHeathrow Express£28.90
• Anytime Day SingleHeathrow Express£29.70
• Anytime Web SingleHeathrow Express£29.70
• Anytime Day SingleHeathrow Express£30.10
• Anytime Web SingleHeathrow Express£30.10
• Anytime Day Single (1st Class)Heathrow Express£35.00
• Anytime Day Single (1st Class)Heathrow Express£35.00
• Anytime Day Single (1st Class)Heathrow Express£35.30
• Anytime Day Single (1st Class)Heathrow Express£35.90
• Anytime Day Single (1st Class)Heathrow Express£36.90
• Anytime Day Single (1st Class)Heathrow Express£37.10

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Oct 2022 ==

I think another question might be why the Not Heathrow Express fare is that high - its £27.30 for a Foxton to Hayes & Harlington SDS and £49.80 for a SDS to Heathrow that's only valid on Elizabeth Line trains into Heathrow.

H&H being my usual split when travelling to Heathrow in the peak

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Oct 2022 ==

You need to check the itinerary provided is via Elizabeth line. In such case the Travelcard should be offered. Travelcards are not valid on Heathrow Express so the single ticket should be offered if the itinerary involves Heathrow Express.

Yes, to be clear, for all sites I looked at (not on Trainsplit) that did display options via Elizabeth Line, Travelcard was not offered!

e.g. Thameslink displays HEX itineraries and does have a click to "show slower route" but displays the same £32.85 Anytime, and does not have a "show Travelcard options" like some sites do.

 

[Haywain]

Since off peak travelcards are valid any time after 09.30,

Except when a Network Railcard discount is applied, when it becomes after 10.00.

 

[CyrusWuff]

One possibility for the discrepancy is that Day Travelcards are defined as return tickets in Fares Data, so most journey planners would probably suppress them if you're searching for a Single journey.

 

[Watershed]

One possibility for the discrepancy is that Day Travelcards are defined as return tickets in Fares Data, so most journey planners would probably suppress them if you're searching for a Single journey.

Similarly to how many journey planners and TVMs overcharge when a return fare is cheaper than a single, as is the case on numerous ScotRail CDR flows.

 

[kieron]

Yes, to be clear, for all sites I looked at (not on Trainsplit) that did display options via Elizabeth Line, Travelcard was not offered!

e.g. Thameslink displays HEX itineraries and does have a click to "show slower route" but displays the same £32.85 Anytime, and does not have a "show Travelcard options" like some sites do.

No-one here knows which sites you looked at. It seems reasonable to assume that you haven't actually checked every site on the internet, so a claim that something happens on every one of them (or every site apart from whichever one you felt moved to come here to promote) gives us nothing to work with.

On the Thameslink web site, I can see two issues with your specific journey.

1. It doesn't suggest return tickets for single journeys, and a travelcard is a return journey. Request a return (after 7pm the same day, to avoid the peak) and you'll get travelcards.

2. It doesn't offer split tickets (certainly not by default). Crossrail do go to terminal 5, but Heathrow Express has a better connection for a journey from Foxton, both in Paddington and at Terminals 2 & 3. Travelcards are not valid on Heathrow Express. If I select "via Hayes & Harlington", it offers faster journeys (with a change in Terminals 2 & 3) with a return ticket, and slower ones (without a change there) with a travelcard.

If I actually wanted to buy a ticket for a single journey from Foxton to Heathrow Terminal 5 from the Thameslink web site with an itinerary, I'd request a return journey from Foxton to Heathrow Term123 via Hayes & Harlington.

 

[Royston Vasey]

No-one here knows which sites you looked at. It seems reasonable to assume that you haven't actually checked every site on the internet, so a claim that something happens on every one of them (or every site apart from whichever one you felt moved to come here to promote) gives us nothing to work with.

On the Thameslink web site, I can see two issues with your specific journey.

1. It doesn't suggest return tickets for single journeys, and a travelcard is a return journey. Request a return (after 7pm the same day, to avoid the peak) and you'll get travelcards.

2. It doesn't offer split tickets (certainly not by default). Crossrail do go to terminal 5, but Heathrow Express has a better connection for a journey from Foxton, both in Paddington and at Terminals 2 & 3. Travelcards are not valid on Heathrow Express. If I select "via Hayes & Harlington", it offers faster journeys (with a change in Terminals 2 & 3) with a return ticket, and slower ones (without a change there) with a travelcard.

If I actually wanted to buy a ticket for a single journey from Foxton to Heathrow Terminal 5 from the Thameslink web site with an itinerary, I'd request a return journey from Foxton to Heathrow Term123 via Hayes & Harlington.

Firstly I think your post is unnecessarily salty. Perhaps this wasn't intended. No I haven't interrogated every site on the Internet but several mainstream retailers will only sell me a more expensive ticket than necessary, and I wanted to start a discussion.

I guess then that the issue is the return is cheaper than a single for a certain flow. I expect this may be the case elsewhere as @Watershed kindly added.

And a "normal" passenger (if they even get past Trainline!) is not to know necessarily that they can do better than a £50 anytime single, in the absence of a railcard, and arent offered it. I am a touch more informed in that I knew Trainsplit would offer me the Hayes split in the absence of the Travelcard "trick".

Incidentally your final point gives an itinerary but doesn't change the issue as the Elizabeth Line itinerary is offered at the Anytime Day Single price (I don't need an itinerary when I'm on the most expensive unrestricted ticket already!)

It seems we have got to the bottom of it though. Passenger asks for a single, through, ticket to Heathrow T5 and gets the only ticket that conforms to those parameters.

 

[Adam Williams]

Similarly to how many journey planners and TVMs overcharge when a return fare is cheaper than a single, as is the case on numerous ScotRail CDR flows.

There are problems associated with offering the return though - in the case of disruption, you're effectively halving the amount refundable to the customer for an abandoned journey. Similarly for delay repay, for delays less than 2 hours...

 

[Starmill]

There are problems associated with offering the return though - in the case of disruption, you're effectively halving the amount refundable to the customer for an abandoned journey. Similarly for delay repay, for delays less than 2 hours...

Indeed. The only good solution is to ask the customer if they are happy to accept the cheaper ticket in exchange for this small loss of rights. The second best solution is probably to just sell the cheaper ticket.