Off_Peak Ticket Validity and Delays

[EustonRoad]

Hello,

Long time lurker first time poster, I'm hoping if anyone could help with some clarification on what happens to the validity of Off (and Super Off) Peak tickets with regards to delays.

Next week I am traveling for work from Croydon to Scarborough. I am booked to use a Super Off Peak return ticket and the itinerary I have gets me into London Victoria 13:33 over on the Viccy to Kings Cross for the 14:30 departure to York (on which I have a reserved seat) and then change for the final leg to Scarborough getting in at 17:29. Now if all goes to plan this is perfect as I have a meeting in the morning and can then get into Scarborough for a decent time. I notice that next departure from Kings Cross 15:30 is Off Peak (but not Super Off Peak) service and the one after that a Peak service, in fact the next Super Off Peak service is the 20:00 service from Kings Cross that doesn't get me to Scarborough until 22:49!

My question is what happens if say my train into London is delayed or I get stuck on the tube for longer then the transfer time and miss the 14:30? I know if I had an advanced ticket I would be accommodated on the next service the 15:30 but what about an open Super Off Peak? Would I be allowed to get on the 15:30 as I followed the booked itinerary but missed the 14:30 due to delay on the railways? Or would I be forced to wait for 5 hours or so in Kings Cross to wait for the next Super Off Peak train despite the fact that I missed it was not down to me or a factor that wasn't the railway (ie I hadn't missed my first train or taken a diversion while in London).

I have a horrible feeling it's the later which I find odd as it means that Advance ticket purchasers have much more protection in such circumstances then open ticket holders. I can't seem to find an answer either way out of the NR website!

Many thanks for any advice.

 

[Romilly]

Welcome.

Although not an answer to your main question, after the 1430 out of Kings X the next departure valid on your super offpeak ticket is the 1900 out of Kings X. However, there is a big gap in trains from York to Scarborough, so you end up waiting in York rather than London for the same train to Scarborough.

 

[Starmill]

I think this is something of a can of worms. My view is that, as long as you are travelling in accordance with a valid travel itinerary (and it would appear that you are) if delays occur en route you should simply be accommodated on the next available train to your destination. After all, during disruption all train operators should 'strive to deliver the same high standards to everyone' - even ATOC says so.

However. There is a possibility that some staff on the ground may choose not to see it this way and thereby offer you less good service, not permitting you to travel on a later train that is not normally permitted with your type of ticket. They are likely to give you the options of waitunt until the 2000 or paying an excess fare to the Off-Peak or Anytime tickets - annoyingly this would almost certainly be up to the full value of the return:

Croydon Stations <> Scarborough
Super Off-Peak Return £119.90
Off-Peak Return £191.10 (£71.20 excess)
Anytime Return £261.00 (£141.10 excess)*

As you can see these are significant sums.

Note that in any case, Delay Compensation is likely to apply should you miss your York - Scarborough train the next one is an hour later so that puts you over any threshold for compensation.

Should you be requested to wait for the 2000 in order to avoid payment of an excess, 5 hours and 10 minutes of delay compensation would be due. This is however unlikely to make you feel much better given the level of compensation will not exceed the fares paid and the length of the wait in London and your final arrival time in Scarborough!

In my view, if you are asked to pay an excess, you should be able to apply for this to be refunded, although who to could vary depending on exactly what happened. Others may disagree that a refund would be your entitlement in this case.

Overall if I were doing this journey I would have a degree of confidence that I would a) be relatively unlikely to miss my intended train and b) be relatively likely to be accommodated without further charge on a later train should disruption be serious enough for this to become a reality. Unfortunately, and if I am correct here, to the discredit of the industry, I don't think it's a possibility which can be discounted.

* An Anytime Single from London Terminals to York @ £112.00 would be cheaper. A route 'Grand Central Only' Anytime Single @ £83.10 is also available for the 1650 service from Kings Cross to York.

 

[IanD]

You could catch a train direct to St Pancras International from East Croydon to reduce the number of points a delay could occur. For example the 1309, 6 minutes earlier than your Victoria train will get you to St Pancras Int at 1356.

Also, I believe your ticket to be valid via Sheffield so if you aren't delayed too much but are told to wait for the next super off peak train from KX, you could get the 1458 from St Pancras and change at Derby/Sheffield to get to York about 1830 and Scarborough about 1930.

Still a big delay so you should be able to claim compensation but at least you'd get to Scarborough before 2246.

 

[bb21]

Of course amongst all the scaremongering, I have little doubt that you will be accommodated on the next available service. You may need to get the ticket endorsed at the ticket office at King's Cross first.

 

[telstarbox]

Is it worth tweeting East Coast to ask?

 

[bb21]

Is it worth tweeting East Coast to ask?

Most probably

 

[John @ home]

what happens if ... I ... miss the 14:30?

Then, if possible, take

• 1435 Kings X - Leeds 1648, then 1712 Leeds - Scarborough 1829, or
• 1458 St Pancras - Chesterfield 1643, then 1704 Chesterfield - York 1831, then 1840 York - Scarborough 1930.

These trains are allowed with your Super Off-Peak Return Croydon Stations - Scarborough route + Any Permitted ticket. The ticket has restriction 9D, a relevant part of which is "Mondays to Fridays, not valid on trains timed to depart London Terminals (except as shown below) after 02:59 and before 09:06 and after 14:59 and before 18:59 (18:15 on Fridays)", allowing use of the 1435 departure from Kings X and another part of which is "Mondays to Fridays, not valid on trains timed to depart London St Pancras International after 04:29 and before 10:29 and after 15:15 and before 18:59", allowing use of the 1458 departure from St Pancras.

If you miss both the 1435 and 1458 departures, go to Kings X travel centre and seek to have your ticket authorised for onward travel. Reports on this forum suggest that this is possible with perseverance, but may take some time while the running of your train(s) from Croydon is checked.

Finally, I travel quite frequently between East Croydon and Yorkshire and I recommend the Thameslink route rather than the route via Victoria. The reason is reliability: the route via Victoria relies on both the Southern service and the Victoria Line tube operating correctly, while the Thameslink needs only one railway line to be working. Your Super Off-Peak Return Croydon Stations - Scarborough route + Any Permitted ticket is valid via Thameslink: searching for East Croydon to Scarborough via City Thameslink gives the itinerary:

• 1309 East Croydon - St Pancras 1348, 1430 Kings X - York 1632, then 1640 Leeds - Scarborough 1729.

 

[yorkie]

I know if I had an advanced ticket I would be accommodated on the next service the 15:30 but what about an open Super Off Peak?

I do not believe that the holder of a Super Off Peak ticket is entitled to less rights than those given to the holder of a more restricted ticket type.

Would I be allowed to get on the 15:30 ....

I believe so, otherwise you'd be delayed by the rail industry for around 5 hours for no apparent reason!

I can't imagine that happening, but if it did I would want to know about it so we can get something done about it!

 

[EustonRoad]

Hello everyone,

Thank you all for the very detailed replies they have been most helpful and have put my mind at ease. I don't normally worry about such things but I must admit the face in this instance of a 5 hour+ delay if the train was missed filled me with dread!

I do find it strange that it is made quite clear when you book an advance ticket what your rights are when it comes to delays there is no similar information for open tickets.

I didn't realise I was able to get on the train from St Pancras, when I checked the alternative routes guide on the NR website it only showed 3 valid routes all from Kings Cross the differences being how to get to Kings Cross (via Vic, Bridge or Farringdon). Handy to know I've got the 14:58 as a backup as I regularly use EMT and have always had a good experience with them. If someone queries the routing is the 9D printed on the ticket somewhere so I can show them?

Sorry I'm probably making a mountain out of a molehill and everything will go OK but as they say forewarned is forearmed.

Again many thanks for the excellent advice.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Sorry forgot to add I can't Tweet East Coast but have emailed them, will post an update when they reply.

 

[island]

Virgin is usually relaxed enough in this type of situation.

 

[John @ home]

I didn't realise I was able to get on the train from St Pancras, when I checked the alternative routes guide on the NR website it only showed 3 valid routes all from Kings Cross

The search engines are set to show the fastest Permitted Routes. To see the itinerary with the 1458 journey from St Pancras, search for East Croydon to Scarborough via Leicester.

Handy to know I've got the 14:58 as a backup as I regularly use EMT and have always had a good experience with them. If someone queries the routing is the 9D printed on the ticket somewhere so I can show them?

Restriction 9D lists the times when you can and can't use a Super Off-Peak Return Croydon Stations - Scarborough route + Any Permitted ticket. The definitive version of the restriction is at http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/9D. If your ticket is printed at East Croydon station, it will show 9D in small type to the right of the word Validity.

But Restriction 9D does not tell you which routes are Permitted. That is calculated using a complex set of documents called the National Routeing Guide. The simplest way to demonstrate that a particular route is a Permitted Route is to print a valid travel itinerary and to carry it with you on the journey. The National Rail Enquiries site (http://www.nres.co.uk) will provide such an itinerary including the 1458 departure from St Pancras.